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> Prices assume IRA Federal Tax Credits up to $7,500 for Rear-Wheel Drive and All-Wheel Drive and est. gas savings of $3,600 over 3 years. This seems like a ne

> Prices assume IRA Federal Tax Credits up to $7,500 for Rear-Wheel Drive and All-Wheel Drive and est. gas savings of $3,600 over 3 years. This seems like a new low in scammy marketing. I can't wait for everything to have wildly undermarked prices with small asterisks saying it's when you subtract all the ways it will save you money in the long term.

mholm 3y ago
They've been doing this for many years now. The 3 was released with the prices calculated in this way on the website.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  "They've been lying for years" is hardly a defence. In most countries this kind of pricing nonsense is illegal.
  - adrianmonk 3y ago
    It's not a defense. The person above said it is a "new low in scammy marketing" (emphasis mine). In order to be a new low, it has to be new.
oh_sigh 3y ago
You can just click the "purchase price" tab instead of the "probable savings" tab.
- neogodless 3y ago
  Totally missed that subtle dark gray on black design element! You have to begin scrolling immediately to see the three trim levels, and by then, the tabs are lost forever. Quite literally fits the phrase "dark pattern", ha!
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    It shows a reasonable disclaimer at the bottom: > * Prices assume IRA Federal Tax Credits up to $7,500 for Rear-Wheel Drive and All-Wheel Drive and est. gas savings of $3,600 over 3 years.
  - wilg 3y ago
    I mean clearly you can read it since it's the same text color and background color as the price you are complaining about, as well as all the specs.
chr-s 3y ago
They also do this thing at the top of their product page [0] where they say 11,000 lbs towing capacity, 340 mi. range (estimated), 2.6 sec 0-60 mph (with leadout). But they aren't selling a truck with those exact specs. The AWD has a 340 mi. range (est.) and a 4.1 0-60 and the Cyberbeast has a 320 mi. range (est.) and a 2.6 0-60 mph (with leadout). They pick the best attribute from each to highlight on the top of their product page. Note that they also advertise one model's 0-60 with leadout and one without so the difference between them looks more substantial than it is. [0] https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck
zeusk 3y ago
How is it any different from $10,000 Full Self Driving "Autopilot" will be out anytime next year™
- constantly 3y ago
  You get the credit on your taxes, enshrined in law.
  - zeusk 3y ago
    As opposed to the promised and paid-for feature where the delivery isn't enshrined in law? What an altruistic company.
  - Someone1234 3y ago
    Some people get credit on your taxes, some people don't, yet Tesla is advertising it as a universal tax credit. So they aren't stating what is "enshrined into law" but rather the best case scenario.
7e 3y ago
In most (32) states there are extra fees added to yearly EV registration to compensate for the lack of gas tax revenue, but Tesla never includes them in their calculations. Insurance costs and tire wear are usually much higher for Teslas, too. Neither does Tesla include the costs of the charger or the electrician's installation fees (~$1,000). Supercharging fees on road trips are completely ignored. It's also highly unlikely that anyone considering the purchase of these cars meets federal tax credit income thresholds ($7,500). Borderline fraudulent.
verdverm 3y ago
I'm looking at insurance plans and it is the same story, they show price as if you get the maximum govt assistance, even if I put in $1M for annual income. I see this style of price hiding more prevalent everywhere. Too much psychology and dark patterns have invaded everything we do. I cannot count how many times I click a cool new open source project link on HN, see a pricing page, and find a "monthly" price with an astrix and toggle to see the real monthly price
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
shepherdjerred 3y ago
This doesn't seem very different than advertising a price after a rebate. Saving $1,200 a year on gas seems reasonable if you pay $4/gal and fill up a 14gal tank twice a month. I'm not sure about the tax credit -- I assume those are guaranteed to whoever purchases the vehicle, but maybe that's not the case.
- wepple 3y ago
  Price after rebate seems reasonable: you pay money, get the item, a rebate gives you money back on your purchase. Savings over time is a whole other dimension, you have to wait for it. And it makes huge assumptions about usage and input (gas) prices. It also assumes you’re not already driving an EV so your current gas cost is $0. That seems near illegal.
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    > That seems near illegal. Oh, come on. Tesla is not hiding this. It's the first thing you see in the pricing section, and it's the last thing you see at the bottom. Maybe it's illegal somehow, but this is certainly not immoral. Tesla is making the case for the efficiency gains of their vehicle based on what most people drive today. This is certainly becoming less relevant/useful as electric/hybrid vehicles become more popular, but it is still quite helpful for anyone trying to compare the cost of a Tesla vs a ICE automobile. Even better, this expected total cost of ownership would be included somewhere like it is with home appliances [0]. > It also assumes you’re not already driving an EV so your current gas cost is $0. In that case, you can simply select the "Purchase Price". > Savings over time is a whole other dimension, you have to wait for it. And it makes huge assumptions about usage and input (gas) prices. That's fair. Tesla very clearly details their assumptions under the "see details" link, which to my eyes looks quite generous: ----- Gasoline Savings Electric vehicles are less expensive to fuel than gasoline powered vehicles. The average person drives between 10,000 and 15,000 miles and spends between $1,700 and $2,500 on gasoline per year. We've assumed a fuel economy of 20.0 miles per gallon for a comparable gasoline powered truck. We've also assumed the national average of $0.16 per kilowatt-hour for residential electricity (assumed for 100% of charging) and $3.30 per gallon for gasoline over the next three years. Tesla efficiency values are based on Cybertruck All-Wheel Drive. Comparison gasoline vehicles are selected based on vehicle class, seating capacity and standard features. We use the EPA estimated range standard to compare efficiency data between our vehicles and a comparable gasoline alternative using each vehicle's combined city/highway MPG and MPGe ratings. Actual range may vary based on factors such as speed, weather conditions and elevation change. Cybertruck All-Wheel Drive consumption rating = 42.9 kWh/100mi Comparison vehicle consumption rating = 20.0 mpg References: We used the most recent gasoline and electricity prices that were available to us through third-party resources on November 30, 2023. ----- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnergyGuide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnergyGuide
modeless 3y ago
The tax credit is guaranteed as long as you made less than 300k this year or last year (150k if not married), and it is now given directly at time of purchase instead of later when you file. Seems OK to include. The gas savings is much more speculative.
- microtherion 3y ago
  Do people making less than 150k buy 100k cars? I don't have a good sense for how Americans budget their vehicle purchases.
  - frumper 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - grpt 3y ago
      > American's often don't budget. Just random drive-by comment hating a particular nationality...
      - frumper 3y ago
        I'm American. Most of my friends/family don't even pretend to budget. Looking at reports of the debt loads of Americans, it's pretty clear that we overspend. So if we do budget, we don't follow it.
        grpt 3y ago
        > I'm American. irrelevant > Most of my friends/family your comment was about "Americans" generally. Not about Americans you know. pointlessly divisive, stereotyping nationality, and without merit. exactly the type of comment we need less of on HN. I replied because it prevents you from deleting the comment. EDIT: ah, I see that they are now replying with a random article found after hastily searching for sources to confirm their bias with commentary from * squints * a "financial therapist." A CNBC article that is a submarine (as coined by PG[1]), meant to advertise OppLoans. don't believe me? see all the articles written by CNBC for OppLoans: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Acnbc.com+OppLoans https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Acnbc.com+OppLoans Well then.... my mistake. Anything to justify your comment. Carry on... [1] http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
DennisP 3y ago
The $7,500 at least is pretty legit, since in 2024 the IRS will let you get the discount at point of sale. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-electric-vehicle-tax-credit https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-elect...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > $7,500 at least is pretty legit You can't claim it if you make more than "$300,000 for a household, $150,000 for an individual or $225,000 for a head of household" [1]. That describes a decent fraction of the Cybertruck's target market. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/01/07/1147209505/electric-car-tax-credit-climate-bill-tesla-volkswagen-ev https://www.npr.org/2023/01/07/1147209505/electric-car-tax-c...
  - DennisP 3y ago
    Yes but the new method transfers the tax credit to the dealer, who then gives you a discount off the purchase price. Seems possible that the purchaser income limit wouldn't apply when it's the dealer taking the credit. All the articles I've seen say we're still waiting for complete IRS guidance though.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > possible that the purchaser income limit wouldn't apply when it's the dealer taking the credit The credit changes when you get the cash, not its eligibility [1]. If the dealer mistakenly gives you the credit, it will be added back--with interest and penalties--when you file. (The dealer reports it, so if someone forgets to include it in their filing it will accrue penalties and interest until the IRS gets around to collecting.) [1] https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean...
nikcub 3y ago
If you switch the site to Australia[0] you'll notice they don't do this - it's because by consumer law they're not allowed to, and you have to quote the "drive away price" You can't even deduct the various gov rebates or tax exemptions; only mention that you _may_ qualify. They have a smaller and lower contrast "after cost savings" at the bottom of the page - but the price on the site is the price, as it damn well should be. [0] https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3/design#overview https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3/design#overview
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mholm 3y ago

They've been doing this for many years now. The 3 was released with the prices calculated in this way on the website.

mvdtnz 3y ago
"They've been lying for years" is hardly a defence. In most countries this kind of pricing nonsense is illegal.
- adrianmonk 3y ago
  It's not a defense. The person above said it is a "new low in scammy marketing" (emphasis mine). In order to be a new low, it has to be new.

oh_sigh 3y ago

You can just click the "purchase price" tab instead of the "probable savings" tab.

neogodless 3y ago
Totally missed that subtle dark gray on black design element! You have to begin scrolling immediately to see the three trim levels, and by then, the tabs are lost forever. Quite literally fits the phrase "dark pattern", ha!
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  It shows a reasonable disclaimer at the bottom: > * Prices assume IRA Federal Tax Credits up to $7,500 for Rear-Wheel Drive and All-Wheel Drive and est. gas savings of $3,600 over 3 years.
- wilg 3y ago
  I mean clearly you can read it since it's the same text color and background color as the price you are complaining about, as well as all the specs.

chr-s 3y ago

They also do this thing at the top of their product page [0] where they say 11,000 lbs towing capacity, 340 mi. range (estimated), 2.6 sec 0-60 mph (with leadout). But they aren't selling a truck with those exact specs. The AWD has a 340 mi. range (est.) and a 4.1 0-60 and the Cyberbeast has a 320 mi. range (est.) and a 2.6 0-60 mph (with leadout). They pick the best attribute from each to highlight on the top of their product page. Note that they also advertise one model's 0-60 with leadout and one without so the difference between them looks more substantial than it is. [0] https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck

zeusk 3y ago

How is it any different from $10,000 Full Self Driving "Autopilot" will be out anytime next year™

constantly 3y ago
You get the credit on your taxes, enshrined in law.
- zeusk 3y ago
  As opposed to the promised and paid-for feature where the delivery isn't enshrined in law? What an altruistic company.
- Someone1234 3y ago
  Some people get credit on your taxes, some people don't, yet Tesla is advertising it as a universal tax credit. So they aren't stating what is "enshrined into law" but rather the best case scenario.

7e 3y ago

In most (32) states there are extra fees added to yearly EV registration to compensate for the lack of gas tax revenue, but Tesla never includes them in their calculations. Insurance costs and tire wear are usually much higher for Teslas, too. Neither does Tesla include the costs of the charger or the electrician's installation fees (~$1,000). Supercharging fees on road trips are completely ignored. It's also highly unlikely that anyone considering the purchase of these cars meets federal tax credit income thresholds ($7,500). Borderline fraudulent.

verdverm 3y ago

I'm looking at insurance plans and it is the same story, they show price as if you get the maximum govt assistance, even if I put in $1M for annual income. I see this style of price hiding more prevalent everywhere. Too much psychology and dark patterns have invaded everything we do. I cannot count how many times I click a cool new open source project link on HN, see a pricing page, and find a "monthly" price with an astrix and toggle to see the real monthly price

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

shepherdjerred 3y ago

This doesn't seem very different than advertising a price after a rebate. Saving $1,200 a year on gas seems reasonable if you pay $4/gal and fill up a 14gal tank twice a month. I'm not sure about the tax credit -- I assume those are guaranteed to whoever purchases the vehicle, but maybe that's not the case.

wepple 3y ago
Price after rebate seems reasonable: you pay money, get the item, a rebate gives you money back on your purchase. Savings over time is a whole other dimension, you have to wait for it. And it makes huge assumptions about usage and input (gas) prices. It also assumes you’re not already driving an EV so your current gas cost is $0. That seems near illegal.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  > That seems near illegal. Oh, come on. Tesla is not hiding this. It's the first thing you see in the pricing section, and it's the last thing you see at the bottom. Maybe it's illegal somehow, but this is certainly not immoral. Tesla is making the case for the efficiency gains of their vehicle based on what most people drive today. This is certainly becoming less relevant/useful as electric/hybrid vehicles become more popular, but it is still quite helpful for anyone trying to compare the cost of a Tesla vs a ICE automobile. Even better, this expected total cost of ownership would be included somewhere like it is with home appliances [0]. > It also assumes you’re not already driving an EV so your current gas cost is $0. In that case, you can simply select the "Purchase Price". > Savings over time is a whole other dimension, you have to wait for it. And it makes huge assumptions about usage and input (gas) prices. That's fair. Tesla very clearly details their assumptions under the "see details" link, which to my eyes looks quite generous: ----- Gasoline Savings Electric vehicles are less expensive to fuel than gasoline powered vehicles. The average person drives between 10,000 and 15,000 miles and spends between $1,700 and $2,500 on gasoline per year. We've assumed a fuel economy of 20.0 miles per gallon for a comparable gasoline powered truck. We've also assumed the national average of $0.16 per kilowatt-hour for residential electricity (assumed for 100% of charging) and $3.30 per gallon for gasoline over the next three years. Tesla efficiency values are based on Cybertruck All-Wheel Drive. Comparison gasoline vehicles are selected based on vehicle class, seating capacity and standard features. We use the EPA estimated range standard to compare efficiency data between our vehicles and a comparable gasoline alternative using each vehicle's combined city/highway MPG and MPGe ratings. Actual range may vary based on factors such as speed, weather conditions and elevation change. Cybertruck All-Wheel Drive consumption rating = 42.9 kWh/100mi Comparison vehicle consumption rating = 20.0 mpg References: We used the most recent gasoline and electricity prices that were available to us through third-party resources on November 30, 2023. ----- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnergyGuide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnergyGuide

modeless 3y ago

The tax credit is guaranteed as long as you made less than 300k this year or last year (150k if not married), and it is now given directly at time of purchase instead of later when you file. Seems OK to include. The gas savings is much more speculative.

microtherion 3y ago
Do people making less than 150k buy 100k cars? I don't have a good sense for how Americans budget their vehicle purchases.
- frumper 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - grpt 3y ago
    > American's often don't budget. Just random drive-by comment hating a particular nationality...
    - frumper 3y ago
      I'm American. Most of my friends/family don't even pretend to budget. Looking at reports of the debt loads of Americans, it's pretty clear that we overspend. So if we do budget, we don't follow it.
      - grpt 3y ago
        > I'm American. irrelevant > Most of my friends/family your comment was about "Americans" generally. Not about Americans you know. pointlessly divisive, stereotyping nationality, and without merit. exactly the type of comment we need less of on HN. I replied because it prevents you from deleting the comment. EDIT: ah, I see that they are now replying with a random article found after hastily searching for sources to confirm their bias with commentary from * squints * a "financial therapist." A CNBC article that is a submarine (as coined by PG[1]), meant to advertise OppLoans. don't believe me? see all the articles written by CNBC for OppLoans: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Acnbc.com+OppLoans https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Acnbc.com+OppLoans Well then.... my mistake. Anything to justify your comment. Carry on... [1] http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

DennisP 3y ago

The $7,500 at least is pretty legit, since in 2024 the IRS will let you get the discount at point of sale. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-electric-vehicle-tax-credit https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-elect...

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> $7,500 at least is pretty legit You can't claim it if you make more than "$300,000 for a household, $150,000 for an individual or $225,000 for a head of household" [1]. That describes a decent fraction of the Cybertruck's target market. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/01/07/1147209505/electric-car-tax-credit-climate-bill-tesla-volkswagen-ev https://www.npr.org/2023/01/07/1147209505/electric-car-tax-c...
- DennisP 3y ago
  Yes but the new method transfers the tax credit to the dealer, who then gives you a discount off the purchase price. Seems possible that the purchaser income limit wouldn't apply when it's the dealer taking the credit. All the articles I've seen say we're still waiting for complete IRS guidance though.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > possible that the purchaser income limit wouldn't apply when it's the dealer taking the credit The credit changes when you get the cash, not its eligibility [1]. If the dealer mistakenly gives you the credit, it will be added back--with interest and penalties--when you file. (The dealer reports it, so if someone forgets to include it in their filing it will accrue penalties and interest until the IRS gets around to collecting.) [1] https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean...

nikcub 3y ago

If you switch the site to Australia[0] you'll notice they don't do this - it's because by consumer law they're not allowed to, and you have to quote the "drive away price" You can't even deduct the various gov rebates or tax exemptions; only mention that you _may_ qualify. They have a smaller and lower contrast "after cost savings" at the bottom of the page - but the price on the site is the price, as it damn well should be. [0] https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3/design#overview https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3/design#overview

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]