4 ms·

> There are many terrible products in this world that were successful only because of good sales and marketing. And vice versa. Name one.

mplewis 3y ago
Tesla cars
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  The fundamental core engineering -- the motors, the inverters, the control systems, battery management in their cars are pretty damn fantastic and they were consistently ahead of most others. And the Model S, while a dubious luxury car in terms of fit and finish, was a piece of amazing engineering when it came out. The Model 3 and its variants I think are meh from a UX POV (stupid centre iPad distracto-slab etc) and I won't pay for them because of who is behind them... and the lies about full self driving, and the crap support etc... suck.... but I think it's disingenuous to call Tesla product crap.
- distortionfield 3y ago
  This doesn't track for me. I saw a Tesla dealership and supercharging station in my city before ever seeing an advert for Tesla. That's why Tesla was successful where others weren't.
- lcfcjs 3y ago
  [dead]
polar8 3y ago
Religion.
- csallen 3y ago
  Most religions spread virally, which means the marketers are the customers, which is usually a testament to the product/service being one that customers value. I say this as an atheist who's not a fan of religion, but people clearly get a lot out of it, or at least believe they do.
  - polar8 3y ago
    That’s a great point. I wonder if it’s motivated by value or fear of an eternity of torture in the afterlife, though.
    - WJW 3y ago
      Probably neither. People like to belong to a group where they feel they "belong" and that in itself is sufficient explanation for the spread of religions IMO. Propagation of societal values and/or fear of hell and/or fear of death assuaged by the assurance of an afterlife and/or being able to rationalize away the vagaries of nature as the will of god(s) are just optimizations after the core system was already invented.
- pleoxy 3y ago
  A totally generic and unthinking generalization. There is a place for religion. Something that pushes you to be better than you are. Along with the happiness and fulfillment that comes from that effort. Selflessness, love, compassion, truth. Plenty of bad religions telling you that you are perfect the way that you are. Just give me money, fame, or influence and I will flatter you and pump your ego. Another form of this is flattery in exchange for hating something. Many doomsday cults fit this category. All your life problems are because of 'insert target X'. But I, I have the answers you need. Religion is more attuned with purpose, where your heart is, than the belief in God. Though the two are often paired. And yes, we crave purpose.
  - polar8 3y ago
    There are plenty of things that deliver the above without the dogmatic slaughter of hundreds of millions of humans throughout history and at this very moment.
    - WJW 3y ago
      There's also plenty of religious people who have never murdered anyone in their lives, and there have been plenty of dogmatic massacres for reasons entirely unrelated to religion. The two issues seem to be quite uncorrelated tbh.
      - paulryanrogers 3y ago
        Religion requires belief without evidence. (Or flimsy evidence like ancient testimony.) It's uniquely positioned as a tool to manipulate people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do.
    - pleoxy 3y ago
      You completely missed the nuance I tried to convey. Making a giant bucket of lots of things and declaring it bad because there is something bad in there shows your ignorance. Ignoring reasoning shows an unwillingness to learn about stuff.
nurple 3y ago
Windows
- WJW 3y ago
  Windows (especially v3.1, Windows 95 and Windows XP) was leaps and bounds better than its contemporaries when it came to normal desktop use. You can have the most technologically advanced OS in the world but if it is too difficult to use for 99% of potential users then it it not a good product. Microsoft was one of the first few companies to really get this right.
  - nurple 3y ago
    Yeah, perhaps I should have said MSDOS. But even still, I think perhaps your rose-colored hindsight is probably miscoloring your memory. The initial releases of Windows was a nightmare, with Bill's mom consoling him after a particularly disasterous demo, and if it wasn't on the back of the brilliant--or lucky--marketing maneuverings that cemented MSDOS as the preeminent PC OS at the time, I firmly believe that Windows would not have become the preeminent desktop OS powerhouse that it is today. In fact, I think that behind the scenes of the ominous MS investment in Apple (with the whole big-brotheresque Bill Gates appearance) there was an explicit--business, not technical--agreement between Gates and Jobs that Apple would not venture out of their own hardware, specifically to allow Windows to continue its PC dominance.
    - WJW 3y ago
      Meh. Was early Windows (and/or MSDOS) perfect? Obviously not. Was it better than its competitors? Yes. Absolutely. Compared to what we have today they were all shit tbh and MSDOS was better than most. Don't get me wrong, the marketing game of early MS was absolutely phenomenal. I just want to say that they succeeded to the degree they did because BOTH marketing AND the tech were good.
arjun_krishna1 3y ago
salesforce, many fintech software that haven't been updated since the 90's, adtech

mplewis 3y ago

Tesla cars

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
The fundamental core engineering -- the motors, the inverters, the control systems, battery management in their cars are pretty damn fantastic and they were consistently ahead of most others. And the Model S, while a dubious luxury car in terms of fit and finish, was a piece of amazing engineering when it came out. The Model 3 and its variants I think are meh from a UX POV (stupid centre iPad distracto-slab etc) and I won't pay for them because of who is behind them... and the lies about full self driving, and the crap support etc... suck.... but I think it's disingenuous to call Tesla product crap.
distortionfield 3y ago
This doesn't track for me. I saw a Tesla dealership and supercharging station in my city before ever seeing an advert for Tesla. That's why Tesla was successful where others weren't.
lcfcjs 3y ago
[dead]

polar8 3y ago

Religion.

csallen 3y ago
Most religions spread virally, which means the marketers are the customers, which is usually a testament to the product/service being one that customers value. I say this as an atheist who's not a fan of religion, but people clearly get a lot out of it, or at least believe they do.
- polar8 3y ago
  That’s a great point. I wonder if it’s motivated by value or fear of an eternity of torture in the afterlife, though.
  - WJW 3y ago
    Probably neither. People like to belong to a group where they feel they "belong" and that in itself is sufficient explanation for the spread of religions IMO. Propagation of societal values and/or fear of hell and/or fear of death assuaged by the assurance of an afterlife and/or being able to rationalize away the vagaries of nature as the will of god(s) are just optimizations after the core system was already invented.
pleoxy 3y ago
A totally generic and unthinking generalization. There is a place for religion. Something that pushes you to be better than you are. Along with the happiness and fulfillment that comes from that effort. Selflessness, love, compassion, truth. Plenty of bad religions telling you that you are perfect the way that you are. Just give me money, fame, or influence and I will flatter you and pump your ego. Another form of this is flattery in exchange for hating something. Many doomsday cults fit this category. All your life problems are because of 'insert target X'. But I, I have the answers you need. Religion is more attuned with purpose, where your heart is, than the belief in God. Though the two are often paired. And yes, we crave purpose.
- polar8 3y ago
  There are plenty of things that deliver the above without the dogmatic slaughter of hundreds of millions of humans throughout history and at this very moment.
  - WJW 3y ago
    There's also plenty of religious people who have never murdered anyone in their lives, and there have been plenty of dogmatic massacres for reasons entirely unrelated to religion. The two issues seem to be quite uncorrelated tbh.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Religion requires belief without evidence. (Or flimsy evidence like ancient testimony.) It's uniquely positioned as a tool to manipulate people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do.
  - pleoxy 3y ago
    You completely missed the nuance I tried to convey. Making a giant bucket of lots of things and declaring it bad because there is something bad in there shows your ignorance. Ignoring reasoning shows an unwillingness to learn about stuff.

nurple 3y ago

Windows

WJW 3y ago
Windows (especially v3.1, Windows 95 and Windows XP) was leaps and bounds better than its contemporaries when it came to normal desktop use. You can have the most technologically advanced OS in the world but if it is too difficult to use for 99% of potential users then it it not a good product. Microsoft was one of the first few companies to really get this right.
- nurple 3y ago
  Yeah, perhaps I should have said MSDOS. But even still, I think perhaps your rose-colored hindsight is probably miscoloring your memory. The initial releases of Windows was a nightmare, with Bill's mom consoling him after a particularly disasterous demo, and if it wasn't on the back of the brilliant--or lucky--marketing maneuverings that cemented MSDOS as the preeminent PC OS at the time, I firmly believe that Windows would not have become the preeminent desktop OS powerhouse that it is today. In fact, I think that behind the scenes of the ominous MS investment in Apple (with the whole big-brotheresque Bill Gates appearance) there was an explicit--business, not technical--agreement between Gates and Jobs that Apple would not venture out of their own hardware, specifically to allow Windows to continue its PC dominance.
  - WJW 3y ago
    Meh. Was early Windows (and/or MSDOS) perfect? Obviously not. Was it better than its competitors? Yes. Absolutely. Compared to what we have today they were all shit tbh and MSDOS was better than most. Don't get me wrong, the marketing game of early MS was absolutely phenomenal. I just want to say that they succeeded to the degree they did because BOTH marketing AND the tech were good.

arjun_krishna1 3y ago

salesforce, many fintech software that haven't been updated since the 90's, adtech