4 ms·

Having started a small business I respect greatly the skills of great sales people and fund raisers and people who are great with people. But I don't respect th

Having started a small business I respect greatly the skills of great sales people and fund raisers and people who are great with people. But I don't respect them when they think they can start a business where they don't take what they actually make seriously and think the product will just work its self out if they sell hard enough.

threeseed 3y ago
History has shown them to be right. There are many terrible products in this world that were successful only because of good sales and marketing. And vice versa.
- jeremyjh 3y ago
  How many of those are from single-product startups? I know some are, but not most that I can think of.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  It's just survivorship bias though. There's also boatloads of startups that had crap product and just died right away, and we don't talk about them.
- debacle 3y ago
  > There are many terrible products in this world that were successful only because of good sales and marketing. And vice versa. Name one.
  - mplewis 3y ago
    Tesla cars
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      The fundamental core engineering -- the motors, the inverters, the control systems, battery management in their cars are pretty damn fantastic and they were consistently ahead of most others. And the Model S, while a dubious luxury car in terms of fit and finish, was a piece of amazing engineering when it came out. The Model 3 and its variants I think are meh from a UX POV (stupid centre iPad distracto-slab etc) and I won't pay for them because of who is behind them... and the lies about full self driving, and the crap support etc... suck.... but I think it's disingenuous to call Tesla product crap.
    - distortionfield 3y ago
      This doesn't track for me. I saw a Tesla dealership and supercharging station in my city before ever seeing an advert for Tesla. That's why Tesla was successful where others weren't.
    - lcfcjs 3y ago
      [dead]
  - polar8 3y ago
    Religion.
    - csallen 3y ago
      Most religions spread virally, which means the marketers are the customers, which is usually a testament to the product/service being one that customers value. I say this as an atheist who's not a fan of religion, but people clearly get a lot out of it, or at least believe they do.
      - polar8 3y ago
        That’s a great point. I wonder if it’s motivated by value or fear of an eternity of torture in the afterlife, though.
        WJW 3y ago
        Probably neither. People like to belong to a group where they feel they "belong" and that in itself is sufficient explanation for the spread of religions IMO. Propagation of societal values and/or fear of hell and/or fear of death assuaged by the assurance of an afterlife and/or being able to rationalize away the vagaries of nature as the will of god(s) are just optimizations after the core system was already invented.
    - pleoxy 3y ago
      A totally generic and unthinking generalization. There is a place for religion. Something that pushes you to be better than you are. Along with the happiness and fulfillment that comes from that effort. Selflessness, love, compassion, truth. Plenty of bad religions telling you that you are perfect the way that you are. Just give me money, fame, or influence and I will flatter you and pump your ego. Another form of this is flattery in exchange for hating something. Many doomsday cults fit this category. All your life problems are because of 'insert target X'. But I, I have the answers you need. Religion is more attuned with purpose, where your heart is, than the belief in God. Though the two are often paired. And yes, we crave purpose.
  - nurple 3y ago
    Windows
    - WJW 3y ago
      Windows (especially v3.1, Windows 95 and Windows XP) was leaps and bounds better than its contemporaries when it came to normal desktop use. You can have the most technologically advanced OS in the world but if it is too difficult to use for 99% of potential users then it it not a good product. Microsoft was one of the first few companies to really get this right.
      - nurple 3y ago
        Yeah, perhaps I should have said MSDOS. But even still, I think perhaps your rose-colored hindsight is probably miscoloring your memory. The initial releases of Windows was a nightmare, with Bill's mom consoling him after a particularly disasterous demo, and if it wasn't on the back of the brilliant--or lucky--marketing maneuverings that cemented MSDOS as the preeminent PC OS at the time, I firmly believe that Windows would not have become the preeminent desktop OS powerhouse that it is today. In fact, I think that behind the scenes of the ominous MS investment in Apple (with the whole big-brotheresque Bill Gates appearance) there was an explicit--business, not technical--agreement between Gates and Jobs that Apple would not venture out of their own hardware, specifically to allow Windows to continue its PC dominance.
        WJW 3y ago
        Meh. Was early Windows (and/or MSDOS) perfect? Obviously not. Was it better than its competitors? Yes. Absolutely. Compared to what we have today they were all shit tbh and MSDOS was better than most. Don't get me wrong, the marketing game of early MS was absolutely phenomenal. I just want to say that they succeeded to the degree they did because BOTH marketing AND the tech were good.
  - arjun_krishna1 3y ago
    salesforce, many fintech software that haven't been updated since the 90's, adtech
- TuringNYC 3y ago
  >> History has shown them to be right. >> There are many terrible products in this world that were successful only because of good sales and marketing. And vice versa. Just because technologists have been marginalized, abused, and extracted from successfully thru history -- does not mean it should be accepted and it does not mean I want that for myself or my technical friends.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  What usually happens is that they take a good product and degrade it while making sales on the back of its good reputation.
quickthrower2 3y ago
In am not in Sales but I imagine good at Sales overlaps alot with good at product design/ownership. They are talking to the customer alot. Both the ones who buy a competing product and also buy the one being sold. They probably have done some account management so they know the concerns with onboarding and getting value from the product.

threeseed 3y ago

History has shown them to be right. There are many terrible products in this world that were successful only because of good sales and marketing. And vice versa.

jeremyjh 3y ago
How many of those are from single-product startups? I know some are, but not most that I can think of.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
It's just survivorship bias though. There's also boatloads of startups that had crap product and just died right away, and we don't talk about them.
debacle 3y ago
> There are many terrible products in this world that were successful only because of good sales and marketing. And vice versa. Name one.
- mplewis 3y ago
  Tesla cars
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    The fundamental core engineering -- the motors, the inverters, the control systems, battery management in their cars are pretty damn fantastic and they were consistently ahead of most others. And the Model S, while a dubious luxury car in terms of fit and finish, was a piece of amazing engineering when it came out. The Model 3 and its variants I think are meh from a UX POV (stupid centre iPad distracto-slab etc) and I won't pay for them because of who is behind them... and the lies about full self driving, and the crap support etc... suck.... but I think it's disingenuous to call Tesla product crap.
  - distortionfield 3y ago
    This doesn't track for me. I saw a Tesla dealership and supercharging station in my city before ever seeing an advert for Tesla. That's why Tesla was successful where others weren't.
  - lcfcjs 3y ago
    [dead]
- polar8 3y ago
  Religion.
  - csallen 3y ago
    Most religions spread virally, which means the marketers are the customers, which is usually a testament to the product/service being one that customers value. I say this as an atheist who's not a fan of religion, but people clearly get a lot out of it, or at least believe they do.
    - polar8 3y ago
      That’s a great point. I wonder if it’s motivated by value or fear of an eternity of torture in the afterlife, though.
      - WJW 3y ago
        Probably neither. People like to belong to a group where they feel they "belong" and that in itself is sufficient explanation for the spread of religions IMO. Propagation of societal values and/or fear of hell and/or fear of death assuaged by the assurance of an afterlife and/or being able to rationalize away the vagaries of nature as the will of god(s) are just optimizations after the core system was already invented.
  - pleoxy 3y ago
    A totally generic and unthinking generalization. There is a place for religion. Something that pushes you to be better than you are. Along with the happiness and fulfillment that comes from that effort. Selflessness, love, compassion, truth. Plenty of bad religions telling you that you are perfect the way that you are. Just give me money, fame, or influence and I will flatter you and pump your ego. Another form of this is flattery in exchange for hating something. Many doomsday cults fit this category. All your life problems are because of 'insert target X'. But I, I have the answers you need. Religion is more attuned with purpose, where your heart is, than the belief in God. Though the two are often paired. And yes, we crave purpose.
- nurple 3y ago
  Windows
  - WJW 3y ago
    Windows (especially v3.1, Windows 95 and Windows XP) was leaps and bounds better than its contemporaries when it came to normal desktop use. You can have the most technologically advanced OS in the world but if it is too difficult to use for 99% of potential users then it it not a good product. Microsoft was one of the first few companies to really get this right.
    - nurple 3y ago
      Yeah, perhaps I should have said MSDOS. But even still, I think perhaps your rose-colored hindsight is probably miscoloring your memory. The initial releases of Windows was a nightmare, with Bill's mom consoling him after a particularly disasterous demo, and if it wasn't on the back of the brilliant--or lucky--marketing maneuverings that cemented MSDOS as the preeminent PC OS at the time, I firmly believe that Windows would not have become the preeminent desktop OS powerhouse that it is today. In fact, I think that behind the scenes of the ominous MS investment in Apple (with the whole big-brotheresque Bill Gates appearance) there was an explicit--business, not technical--agreement between Gates and Jobs that Apple would not venture out of their own hardware, specifically to allow Windows to continue its PC dominance.
      - WJW 3y ago
        Meh. Was early Windows (and/or MSDOS) perfect? Obviously not. Was it better than its competitors? Yes. Absolutely. Compared to what we have today they were all shit tbh and MSDOS was better than most. Don't get me wrong, the marketing game of early MS was absolutely phenomenal. I just want to say that they succeeded to the degree they did because BOTH marketing AND the tech were good.
- arjun_krishna1 3y ago
  salesforce, many fintech software that haven't been updated since the 90's, adtech
TuringNYC 3y ago
>> History has shown them to be right. >> There are many terrible products in this world that were successful only because of good sales and marketing. And vice versa. Just because technologists have been marginalized, abused, and extracted from successfully thru history -- does not mean it should be accepted and it does not mean I want that for myself or my technical friends.
gumballindie 3y ago
What usually happens is that they take a good product and degrade it while making sales on the back of its good reputation.

quickthrower2 3y ago

In am not in Sales but I imagine good at Sales overlaps alot with good at product design/ownership. They are talking to the customer alot. Both the ones who buy a competing product and also buy the one being sold. They probably have done some account management so they know the concerns with onboarding and getting value from the product.