7 ms·

The actual scripts: https://github.com/tteck/Proxmox https://github.com/tteck/Proxmox After poking at a couple of these, they seem like they're 50% shiny packa

The actual scripts: https://github.com/tteck/Proxmox https://github.com/tteck/Proxmox After poking at a couple of these, they seem like they're 50% shiny packaging and 50% one-liner bash commands.

wutwutwat 3y ago
The recipe for a very useful devops tool :)
j45 3y ago
Having standardized components like these is pretty valuable and reusable. One could definitely write them on their own. It’s also another way to discover other packages in these categories. Some of the LXC container settings can be a little specific and these scripts manage those we’ll most of the time with a standard install, or an advanced one is available too.
SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
[flagged]
- j45 3y ago
  It’s very myopic to not be able to imagine others are not like you, and that they may be better and wanting to help create beginners more easily. The “I can do it in x” period of time reviews are baffling to me too. I like to be able to rely on smart folks who have fought scripts like these into being polished, so I can built on top of them, even though I have plenty of experience to build these myself. It makes no sense unless it becomes much more important to me.
- masto 3y ago
  Did they say it was a bad thing? And why the need to throw in autism shaming?
  - spacebacon 3y ago
    This worth investing time in getting infrastructure "just right" pay off big later in his grug experience.
- lifeisstillgood 3y ago
  I see software as a form of literacy - and I think this is a good point of view for your issue here. The bash commands and virtualisation host are words or perhaps "cliches" - short pieces of literate work that are available to everyone. And yes you don't have to remember them any more than you need to know every word in the OED. But people can then string those words together to make their own unique literate work - to set up your virtualisation host in the right way. It's possible to do that in some fill in the variables way but it is waaaay better for you to shape what you need. Anyway, that's my take. Yes it's sensible to put the weird ass params to X in a single script and forget about it, I came across one of my own not touched for 18 months. But then I was able to read it, remember the important bits and adjust it. I agree with you - I think
  - helpfulContrib 3y ago
    [dead]
- gosub100 3y ago
  100% agree. I have been running my own NAS the hard way: FreeBSD, ZFS, manual samba/NFS shares, dhcp+gateway+firewall, PXE Boot, Jellyfin (can't remember if it's in a jail or not). All this stuff is a huge, utter PITA and never works quite right. - I have to manually check the zpool periodically to see if there are faults. I went about 30d with a DEGRADED disk before I realized it, turns out it was a bad cable but if another disk failed I would have been hosed. - I have to manually run zpool scrub (yeah I know about cron but chances are if I just add the cron entry it will fail, probably some permission thing or a 1-character bug in the cmd line. Nothing like this is ever easy, it's a 1-hour rodeo, at minimum. And yeah, I'm lazy too, not gonna deny it) - I can only get NFS v3 working, not v4, no idea why. IIRC v4 isn't technically supported by either FreeBSD yet. But rather than just say "not supported" it gives you some cryptic bs that you waste minimum 20m on googling and trying things. Everything you try, you have to triple check: restart rpciod? Or was it nfsd? exportfs -ra? Or was it some encryption version in /etc/exports? - Samba kinda works, no idea how the permissions are supposed to work, but turns out SMB is more resilient to network interrupts than NFS which just hangs the client indefinitely. So for listening to music or reading a book its fine. - I wanted to set up VPN on a 2nd network (not VLAN, just a 2nd subnet that routes out the tun device. I thought since I control DHCP, I could force certain devices to only ever have access via VPN), turns out this isn't possible or "very hard" doing some hack to the NAT pf rules, way above my skill level. I wasted hours on this, got the VPN and tun to authenticate, but got stuck at the routing layer. Oh also I think dhcpd doesn't like routing to different adapters? Can't remember. - PXE was a disaster, as it usually was. I got it barely working enough to boot my tape backup computer off it and run backup scripts. - I want simple logfile aggregation. I dont want to have to ssh into the NAS and check the logs/dmesg. I admit I haven't done a lot of research (10 years ago there was nagios, thats all I know), but it bugs me profusely that I cannot easily monitor the logs of all the machines on my network, and I rarely ever hear about anyone else doing it. so probably 40% success, 60% (frustration|half-assery|disappointment). I guess it's just masochism, like the weightlifters who love the pain of adding 10 extra pounds to their set. At least they get some results eventually. :/ Overall, I don't regret doing it the hard way, but I am often times envious of the Proxmox users who (presumably) just plug and play.
  - latentcall 3y ago
- generalizations 3y ago
  > We have a complexity crisis, and few people see it I’m not saying memorize this stuff - put it in a big proxmox.readme.md file. Then you can incorporate the actual command into your script. Otherwise you end up incorporating this wrapper into other stuff, ad infinitum, and that’s how you get a complexity crisis.
- jasonjayr 3y ago
  Do you know how to join copper pipes? The difference between PEX and PVC? The various pipe fittings and their benefits/costs/tradeoffs? Do you know how high a pipe can rise before you need to add additional pumping? I'm pretty sure you turn the faucet on, and expect drinkable water to come out, without thinking of what's going on between the source of the water and your sink. Yet, anyone, given the right motivation, can use and learn all those pieces and parts, and make use of them at whatever competency level they have. You can even make a soccer goal net with PVC. There is room (and need) in the world for all people to explore, geek out, and use these details. And the people who are passionate about these details, and the intermediate pieces should be cherished, because they are the ones that will understand and fix the intermediary pieces when they break. Sometimes, making money is not the goal.
whalesalad 3y ago
Most of homelabbing is this. it's an outlet to play. unixporn, neofetch, pretty dashboards to link to all of your content pirating tools, etc.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  This this a negative or a positive? And more broadly, a lot of software could be summarised as a pretty packaging of a basic tool.
  - calamari4065 3y ago
    It really depends on your perspective and what you want out of a homelab. If you want to tinker with servers as a hobby it's a huge plus. If you want things to Just Work, this is probably not for you
    - favorited 3y ago
      I've been a "Just Work" person for a long time, but over the last couple years I've shifted to DIYing more instead of buying turn-key products. I replaced my off-the-shelf NAS with a custom TrueNAS box, and swapped my router+firewall+switch+WiFi all-in-one with a low-energy device running pfSense and a dedicated WiFi AP. I have been pleasantly surprised to find that, after the initial research & setup, things still "just work!" In some cases, more reliably (and way more quietly!) than before.
      - calamari4065 3y ago
        I've had the same experience in reverse. I'm a tinkerer and I always have been. I bought a server expecting to tinker with it all the time. What fun! But no, after the first couple hours of tinkering it Just Works. This past week I settled in for a good solid weekend of getting a gitlab server stood up. I was looking forward to it! Imagine my disappointment when it was a single command that took half an hour to run. Oh well, I guess it just means more time for my other hobbies.
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
Bro we spend all day looking at screens. Literally the definition of shiny packages
helpfulContrib 3y ago
[dead]
AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
I think the balance is closer to 80% shiny, 20% working code. There's definitely some cool stuff here (disabling the nag screen, thank you!) but I really dislike the way it's presented. I don't like the curl|bash very much, but mostly I think this would be far more interesting as a collection of one-liners to accomplish each task vs the current form of a curl|bash with dialogs and prompts. I think that's better for security and better for learning you should know what commands you're executing!
chronicsonic 3y ago
Being disabled scripts like these really help me, I can’t sit behind a computer as much as I could before, but it’s still my main hobby. I do a quick look over of the source to make sure it’s ok. It saves me so much time and pain.
m463 3y ago
I really wish proxmox had sort of first-class docker/podman integration. With docker it seems a Dockerfile is a self-contained recipe. You build it, then you run the container. with proxmox, you sort of have to be a sysadmin. The proxmox UI helps you define the characteristics of the container, but then you have to put everything inside the container yourself without help or reproducibility.

The actual scripts: https://github.com/tteck/Proxmox https://github.com/tteck/Proxmox After poking at a couple of these, they seem like they're 50% shiny packaging and 50% one-liner bash commands.

wutwutwat 3y ago

The recipe for a very useful devops tool :)

j45 3y ago

Having standardized components like these is pretty valuable and reusable. One could definitely write them on their own. It’s also another way to discover other packages in these categories. Some of the LXC container settings can be a little specific and these scripts manage those we’ll most of the time with a standard install, or an advanced one is available too.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago

[flagged]

j45 3y ago
It’s very myopic to not be able to imagine others are not like you, and that they may be better and wanting to help create beginners more easily. The “I can do it in x” period of time reviews are baffling to me too. I like to be able to rely on smart folks who have fought scripts like these into being polished, so I can built on top of them, even though I have plenty of experience to build these myself. It makes no sense unless it becomes much more important to me.
masto 3y ago
Did they say it was a bad thing? And why the need to throw in autism shaming?
- spacebacon 3y ago
  This worth investing time in getting infrastructure "just right" pay off big later in his grug experience.
lifeisstillgood 3y ago
I see software as a form of literacy - and I think this is a good point of view for your issue here. The bash commands and virtualisation host are words or perhaps "cliches" - short pieces of literate work that are available to everyone. And yes you don't have to remember them any more than you need to know every word in the OED. But people can then string those words together to make their own unique literate work - to set up your virtualisation host in the right way. It's possible to do that in some fill in the variables way but it is waaaay better for you to shape what you need. Anyway, that's my take. Yes it's sensible to put the weird ass params to X in a single script and forget about it, I came across one of my own not touched for 18 months. But then I was able to read it, remember the important bits and adjust it. I agree with you - I think
- helpfulContrib 3y ago
  [dead]
gosub100 3y ago
100% agree. I have been running my own NAS the hard way: FreeBSD, ZFS, manual samba/NFS shares, dhcp+gateway+firewall, PXE Boot, Jellyfin (can't remember if it's in a jail or not). All this stuff is a huge, utter PITA and never works quite right. - I have to manually check the zpool periodically to see if there are faults. I went about 30d with a DEGRADED disk before I realized it, turns out it was a bad cable but if another disk failed I would have been hosed. - I have to manually run zpool scrub (yeah I know about cron but chances are if I just add the cron entry it will fail, probably some permission thing or a 1-character bug in the cmd line. Nothing like this is ever easy, it's a 1-hour rodeo, at minimum. And yeah, I'm lazy too, not gonna deny it) - I can only get NFS v3 working, not v4, no idea why. IIRC v4 isn't technically supported by either FreeBSD yet. But rather than just say "not supported" it gives you some cryptic bs that you waste minimum 20m on googling and trying things. Everything you try, you have to triple check: restart rpciod? Or was it nfsd? exportfs -ra? Or was it some encryption version in /etc/exports? - Samba kinda works, no idea how the permissions are supposed to work, but turns out SMB is more resilient to network interrupts than NFS which just hangs the client indefinitely. So for listening to music or reading a book its fine. - I wanted to set up VPN on a 2nd network (not VLAN, just a 2nd subnet that routes out the tun device. I thought since I control DHCP, I could force certain devices to only ever have access via VPN), turns out this isn't possible or "very hard" doing some hack to the NAT pf rules, way above my skill level. I wasted hours on this, got the VPN and tun to authenticate, but got stuck at the routing layer. Oh also I think dhcpd doesn't like routing to different adapters? Can't remember. - PXE was a disaster, as it usually was. I got it barely working enough to boot my tape backup computer off it and run backup scripts. - I want simple logfile aggregation. I dont want to have to ssh into the NAS and check the logs/dmesg. I admit I haven't done a lot of research (10 years ago there was nagios, thats all I know), but it bugs me profusely that I cannot easily monitor the logs of all the machines on my network, and I rarely ever hear about anyone else doing it. so probably 40% success, 60% (frustration|half-assery|disappointment). I guess it's just masochism, like the weightlifters who love the pain of adding 10 extra pounds to their set. At least they get some results eventually. :/ Overall, I don't regret doing it the hard way, but I am often times envious of the Proxmox users who (presumably) just plug and play.
- latentcall 3y ago
generalizations 3y ago
> We have a complexity crisis, and few people see it I’m not saying memorize this stuff - put it in a big proxmox.readme.md file. Then you can incorporate the actual command into your script. Otherwise you end up incorporating this wrapper into other stuff, ad infinitum, and that’s how you get a complexity crisis.
jasonjayr 3y ago
Do you know how to join copper pipes? The difference between PEX and PVC? The various pipe fittings and their benefits/costs/tradeoffs? Do you know how high a pipe can rise before you need to add additional pumping? I'm pretty sure you turn the faucet on, and expect drinkable water to come out, without thinking of what's going on between the source of the water and your sink. Yet, anyone, given the right motivation, can use and learn all those pieces and parts, and make use of them at whatever competency level they have. You can even make a soccer goal net with PVC. There is room (and need) in the world for all people to explore, geek out, and use these details. And the people who are passionate about these details, and the intermediate pieces should be cherished, because they are the ones that will understand and fix the intermediary pieces when they break. Sometimes, making money is not the goal.

whalesalad 3y ago

Most of homelabbing is this. it's an outlet to play. unixporn, neofetch, pretty dashboards to link to all of your content pirating tools, etc.

lostlogin 3y ago
This this a negative or a positive? And more broadly, a lot of software could be summarised as a pretty packaging of a basic tool.
- calamari4065 3y ago
  It really depends on your perspective and what you want out of a homelab. If you want to tinker with servers as a hobby it's a huge plus. If you want things to Just Work, this is probably not for you
  - favorited 3y ago
    I've been a "Just Work" person for a long time, but over the last couple years I've shifted to DIYing more instead of buying turn-key products. I replaced my off-the-shelf NAS with a custom TrueNAS box, and swapped my router+firewall+switch+WiFi all-in-one with a low-energy device running pfSense and a dedicated WiFi AP. I have been pleasantly surprised to find that, after the initial research & setup, things still "just work!" In some cases, more reliably (and way more quietly!) than before.
    - calamari4065 3y ago
      I've had the same experience in reverse. I'm a tinkerer and I always have been. I bought a server expecting to tinker with it all the time. What fun! But no, after the first couple hours of tinkering it Just Works. This past week I settled in for a good solid weekend of getting a gitlab server stood up. I was looking forward to it! Imagine my disappointment when it was a single command that took half an hour to run. Oh well, I guess it just means more time for my other hobbies.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago

Bro we spend all day looking at screens. Literally the definition of shiny packages

helpfulContrib 3y ago

[dead]

AdamJacobMuller 3y ago

I think the balance is closer to 80% shiny, 20% working code. There's definitely some cool stuff here (disabling the nag screen, thank you!) but I really dislike the way it's presented. I don't like the curl|bash very much, but mostly I think this would be far more interesting as a collection of one-liners to accomplish each task vs the current form of a curl|bash with dialogs and prompts. I think that's better for security and better for learning you should know what commands you're executing!

chronicsonic 3y ago

Being disabled scripts like these really help me, I can’t sit behind a computer as much as I could before, but it’s still my main hobby. I do a quick look over of the source to make sure it’s ok. It saves me so much time and pain.

m463 3y ago

I really wish proxmox had sort of first-class docker/podman integration. With docker it seems a Dockerfile is a self-contained recipe. You build it, then you run the container. with proxmox, you sort of have to be a sysadmin. The proxmox UI helps you define the characteristics of the container, but then you have to put everything inside the container yourself without help or reproducibility.