6 ms·

Agreed that what is left unsaid in a lot of performance conversations is the person-role match. Someone isn't a high/low performer globally, just at that time

Agreed that what is left unsaid in a lot of performance conversations is the person-role match. Someone isn't a high/low performer globally, just at that time in that role. Wall St firms I have worked at typically try to find different roles for people before marking them as at risk of a layoff. Not sure FAANG behaves the same, but from all these PIP discussions it seems not.

away271828 3y ago
I've absoluttely been in a position where the ground moved under me. I went from doing (based on evaluations, RSUs, etc.) from doing a very good job to bouncing around a bunch of managers and groups in roles that I wasn't really suited for and didn't have much real interest in. The only saving grace was that I was pretty close to semi-retiring anyway.
- giantg2 3y ago
  I've been bouncing for about 5 years. Have about another 20 to go. Not sure how I'm going to handle that.
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    Consider a different job, and pick up some responsibilities.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      What are you talking about? I can't change jobs now due to home life responsibilities and having specialized in dead tech. I have picked up responsibilities. In the past I've filled the role of a senior dev for a year and a tech lead for another. I volunteered to be an ASC. I volunteered for all sorts of other responsibilities. Perhaps the world doesn't work in the way that you think. It's not possible for everyone to successfully job hop, especially with a disability and home responsibilities. Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded.
      - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
        > Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded. I'm sorry, I did not mean to attack, or otherwise offend you. I was attempting to say that one can look for an opportunity to work in an environment where one can feel appreciated. I'd employ a person with such experience as long as they'd know some basics. What's TLS, how does it work, roughly. What's DNS. TCP vs UDP. At least understanding of what problems are solved (or created, if you are in that camp) by Kubernetes. Docker basics. Read open source code. Those are interesting subjects. I'm sure there is a ton of hypothetical past problems one could attempt to modernize and have fun while doing so. It's just a free opinion of someone on the internet!
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        > I can't change jobs now due …having specialized in dead tech. Then don’t do that? I’ve been working professionally for 27 years and have been aggressive about keeping pace with technology. I saw what happened first hand when I didn’t between around 2002-2008 and I said it would never happen again. For reference: I didn’t know “cloud” from a hole in the wall at 44 years old and I got my first and hopefully last job in BigTech at 46 working at AWS in the ProServe department (where I got PIPed see my top level comment) It is completely irresponsible for anyone in tech especially with a family to not always keep themselves employable and depend on the whims of thier current employer to support their families addiction to food, clothing and shelter. And how does a disability preclude you from getting a remote job? And if you “can’t job hop”, would you not look for another job if you got laid off or fired or would you just give up and be on the street - homeless and hungry? > Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded. I’m always rewarded for picking up additional responsibilities - if not by the current company by the next. It’s what allows me to aggressively job hop with a family and not be stuck with dead technologies on my resume.
        giantg2 3y ago
        I have responsibilities and problems at home that greatly limit my non-work hour freedom. My disability is not a physical one, but a neurodivergent one, so remote would only hurt me more. I would look for another job if I lost this one, but it would probably pay less - again, no real time to upskill. Sure, I've gotten new certs and other BS over the years and started working with new tech. That hasn't been helpful. I've worked roles above my official position and not been rewarded. In fact, I haven't seen any of my hard work or extra responsibilities pay off after my first promotion about 3 years in. I don't expect another promotion for the rest of my career either. That's just the way it is for me. Not everyone's life is as easy as you make your's out to be.
jacobyoder 3y ago
I left a company years ago because I didn't feel I was a good fit for the team/project - skills/goals/etc. But wasn't allowed to leave because it would hurt the image of the team to be seen to have people leaving it for other teams. But... apparently, leaving the company altogether doesn't affect the image (and yes... I've left the team, and people internally knew why, so... how does it really save face?)
- Terr_ 3y ago
  Perhaps if the employee leaves the company entirely, all parts of the company get a chance to pretend the deficiency was in the employee. [0] Like some weird inverse of the "You can't fire me, I quit!" trope. [0] P.S.: Even if the employee left for a more prestigious role in another company, the social-circles in the old company aren't forced to acknowledge that the same way as if it were an internal move: HR will just say "they left to pursue other opportunities", and that permits the assumption that that the worker--their incompetence discovered--has fallen into ignominious chronic unemployment.
  - SpaceNoodled 3y ago
    "You can't quit, I fire you!"
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Good, gets the unemployment and makes any legal case a little easier.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        Yes that whopping $387/week on average. That’ll show them https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/best-and-worst-states-for-unemployment/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/best-and-wor...
        giantg2 3y ago
closeparen 3y ago
Leadership was asked why not find new roles for people getting laid off due to project cancellations at a time when we were still hiring like crazy in the immediate run-up and aftermath. The response was “we need to move fast.” They encouraged those laid off to apply for open roles. But of course it read to employees as a monumental “fuck you.”
- Arelius 3y ago
  Well, but to mention that once, at least at amazon, you enter the pip processs. You are no longer able to move teams. And if you get removed. Not able to apply to return.
  - j45 3y ago
    It's surprising companies don't seem interested in understanding their employees well enough to know that the cost of re-hiring and re-training vs trying to find a better fit in the org is not a good idea. Some industries coach the employee into a different role, or help them exit more openly.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I've even seen articles about how Amazon chews through so many people that they're having trouble finding "virgin" hires. Everyone in their pool is already fed up with them or were PIP'd.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        "We need more HB1's.... we already burned the local population"
      - j45 3y ago
        Interesting. Explains the cyclical visits from Amazon recruiters on LinkedIn.
      - aitchnyu 3y ago
        IIRC isnt this about warehouse workers?

away271828 3y ago

I've absoluttely been in a position where the ground moved under me. I went from doing (based on evaluations, RSUs, etc.) from doing a very good job to bouncing around a bunch of managers and groups in roles that I wasn't really suited for and didn't have much real interest in. The only saving grace was that I was pretty close to semi-retiring anyway.

giantg2 3y ago
I've been bouncing for about 5 years. Have about another 20 to go. Not sure how I'm going to handle that.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  Consider a different job, and pick up some responsibilities.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    What are you talking about? I can't change jobs now due to home life responsibilities and having specialized in dead tech. I have picked up responsibilities. In the past I've filled the role of a senior dev for a year and a tech lead for another. I volunteered to be an ASC. I volunteered for all sorts of other responsibilities. Perhaps the world doesn't work in the way that you think. It's not possible for everyone to successfully job hop, especially with a disability and home responsibilities. Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded.
    - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
      > Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded. I'm sorry, I did not mean to attack, or otherwise offend you. I was attempting to say that one can look for an opportunity to work in an environment where one can feel appreciated. I'd employ a person with such experience as long as they'd know some basics. What's TLS, how does it work, roughly. What's DNS. TCP vs UDP. At least understanding of what problems are solved (or created, if you are in that camp) by Kubernetes. Docker basics. Read open source code. Those are interesting subjects. I'm sure there is a ton of hypothetical past problems one could attempt to modernize and have fun while doing so. It's just a free opinion of someone on the internet!
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      > I can't change jobs now due …having specialized in dead tech. Then don’t do that? I’ve been working professionally for 27 years and have been aggressive about keeping pace with technology. I saw what happened first hand when I didn’t between around 2002-2008 and I said it would never happen again. For reference: I didn’t know “cloud” from a hole in the wall at 44 years old and I got my first and hopefully last job in BigTech at 46 working at AWS in the ProServe department (where I got PIPed see my top level comment) It is completely irresponsible for anyone in tech especially with a family to not always keep themselves employable and depend on the whims of thier current employer to support their families addiction to food, clothing and shelter. And how does a disability preclude you from getting a remote job? And if you “can’t job hop”, would you not look for another job if you got laid off or fired or would you just give up and be on the street - homeless and hungry? > Just picking up responsibilities doesn't mean you'll get rewarded. I’m always rewarded for picking up additional responsibilities - if not by the current company by the next. It’s what allows me to aggressively job hop with a family and not be stuck with dead technologies on my resume.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        I have responsibilities and problems at home that greatly limit my non-work hour freedom. My disability is not a physical one, but a neurodivergent one, so remote would only hurt me more. I would look for another job if I lost this one, but it would probably pay less - again, no real time to upskill. Sure, I've gotten new certs and other BS over the years and started working with new tech. That hasn't been helpful. I've worked roles above my official position and not been rewarded. In fact, I haven't seen any of my hard work or extra responsibilities pay off after my first promotion about 3 years in. I don't expect another promotion for the rest of my career either. That's just the way it is for me. Not everyone's life is as easy as you make your's out to be.

jacobyoder 3y ago

I left a company years ago because I didn't feel I was a good fit for the team/project - skills/goals/etc. But wasn't allowed to leave because it would hurt the image of the team to be seen to have people leaving it for other teams. But... apparently, leaving the company altogether doesn't affect the image (and yes... I've left the team, and people internally knew why, so... how does it really save face?)

Terr_ 3y ago
Perhaps if the employee leaves the company entirely, all parts of the company get a chance to pretend the deficiency was in the employee. [0] Like some weird inverse of the "You can't fire me, I quit!" trope. [0] P.S.: Even if the employee left for a more prestigious role in another company, the social-circles in the old company aren't forced to acknowledge that the same way as if it were an internal move: HR will just say "they left to pursue other opportunities", and that permits the assumption that that the worker--their incompetence discovered--has fallen into ignominious chronic unemployment.
- SpaceNoodled 3y ago
  "You can't quit, I fire you!"
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Good, gets the unemployment and makes any legal case a little easier.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      Yes that whopping $387/week on average. That’ll show them https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/best-and-worst-states-for-unemployment/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/best-and-wor...
      - giantg2 3y ago

closeparen 3y ago

Leadership was asked why not find new roles for people getting laid off due to project cancellations at a time when we were still hiring like crazy in the immediate run-up and aftermath. The response was “we need to move fast.” They encouraged those laid off to apply for open roles. But of course it read to employees as a monumental “fuck you.”

Arelius 3y ago
Well, but to mention that once, at least at amazon, you enter the pip processs. You are no longer able to move teams. And if you get removed. Not able to apply to return.
- j45 3y ago
  It's surprising companies don't seem interested in understanding their employees well enough to know that the cost of re-hiring and re-training vs trying to find a better fit in the org is not a good idea. Some industries coach the employee into a different role, or help them exit more openly.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I've even seen articles about how Amazon chews through so many people that they're having trouble finding "virgin" hires. Everyone in their pool is already fed up with them or were PIP'd.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      "We need more HB1's.... we already burned the local population"
    - j45 3y ago
      Interesting. Explains the cyclical visits from Amazon recruiters on LinkedIn.
    - aitchnyu 3y ago
      IIRC isnt this about warehouse workers?