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Disagree. SWE in silicon valley or FAANG and similar companies for sure. Out of all software engineers in the US though, they are likely the minority statistica

Disagree. SWE in silicon valley or FAANG and similar companies for sure. Out of all software engineers in the US though, they are likely the minority statistically. You've got your IBM's, GE, John Deere, payroll software, accounting software, etc. Toiling away at some blue-chip F500 company in software does not compel the same total comp levels by any stretch. Its an order of magnitude difference. No bonuses, crappy healthcare coverage (like thousands out of pocket for childbirth), years with inflation outpacing any annual raise, no stock options/RSUs, etc. Its funny how in forums like here on HN people comment about layoffs, PIP's before vesting of stocks, unfair labor practices, etc. and then tout those hypergrowth companies as well and join on the money train looking at leet code exercises to get in and comparing total comp numbers and stock grants. > you can't easily make a small and stable tech company that wants sustainable business There are many examples of companies that do this, Basecamp for example. There are also company structures (like a worker cooperative) that do not resemble the common S-Corp pyramid where all the profits rise to the few at the top. I've never heard of a startup or tech company go that route. As much as startups have these cool mission statements about changing the world, its the same capitalism as other industries.

solardev 3y ago
I don't know... I hear what you're saying, and I partially agree with it, but it's not as simple as "only FAANG is the problem". There are trickle-down effects on the rest of the industry and society too. Touched upon it in a cousin thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38473513 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38473513), where I was arguing that the big tech companies have trickle-down effects that drive up wages across industries and makes devs more and more unaffordable to non-tech, non-FAANG companies. I've never complained about equity or such because I never had any, having never worked for a big tech company. Plus side, I never had to do leetcode either :) But even then, my last job was at a F1000 old-school manufacturer, and even there I was paid $100k, with free lunches, loose PTO, company paid trips, etc. -- all for making a simple frontend in React, utilizing less skill than I ever have before (because it's so specialized into that stack nowadays, vs the old days where you also had to deal with networking, sys admin, VMs, etc.) Those were cultural things they copied from tech companies. At other jobs before that, I was still paid much more than most of my peers, who had better education and who've worked their asses off for years. Before 2023, dev work could launch you into the middle class after just a few months of bootcamp and a good reference or two. What other profession is like that? I think that's my primary gripe with modern US SWE: it's a get-rich-quick scheme requiring little actual skill or training, and sometimes, little actual work. The work isn't that hard, and something like Upwork is probably more representative of what a realistic market would pay (much less). If I ever imagine myself to be fairly compensated because not everyone can do coding (which is true)... then I look at how teachers, adjunct professors, electricians, plumbers, truckers, etc. are paid and I realize yeah, no... I just sit on my ass all day, code a few hours a day and sit in on meetings and such and the money comes in. It's not even in the same league as other professions in terms of how hard you have to work vs how much you get paid. Especially when I look at my actual friends in tech proper, who work like 10-15 hours a week by their own admittance a week and make way more money. All around it just screams "bubble". We're not paid this much because of our skills. We're paid this much because capital was hoping to cash in on the hypergrowth before it bursts.
- mattbrewsbytes 3y ago
  In comparison we don't physically "do" much, which is true but its really absurd to compare industries against each other. Teaching is largely paid out of tax money and what politicians want to pay them since they usually control state and local budgets. That is a vastly different economic model than some billionaire VC dumping millions of dollars into a bunch of startups hoping he/she gets a hit. Or some Fortune 500 company that makes billions a year. There's a series on YT by a handyman who was literally paid $100/hr to replace a light bulb once. A skilled tradesperson in a town of tech workers that don't DIY anything probably makes bank. We're paid this much because the market pays this much. Its capitalism.
  - solardev 3y ago
    I know :/ US style capitalism is what I'm complaining about. Ridiculous system.
- sneed_chucker 3y ago
  > If I ever imagine myself to be fairly compensated because not everyone can do coding (which is true)... then I look at how teachers, adjunct professors, electricians, plumbers, truckers, etc. are paid and I realize yeah, no... I just sit on my ass all day, code a few hours a day and sit in on meetings and such and the money comes in. It's not even in the same league as other professions in terms of how hard you have to work vs how much you get paid. Especially when I look at my actual friends in tech proper, who work like 10-15 hours a week by their own admittance a week and make way more money. All around it just screams "bubble". Honestly you're looking in the wrong direction. Yeah, there are lots of undercompensated lines of work. But lots of white collar work involves even less actual work or competence than software engineering. Offices are full of people who are terrible at their jobs but basically just fail upwards. Local governments and public school systems have tons of administrative positions that get paid big six figure salaries to basically do no real work.

solardev 3y ago

I don't know... I hear what you're saying, and I partially agree with it, but it's not as simple as "only FAANG is the problem". There are trickle-down effects on the rest of the industry and society too. Touched upon it in a cousin thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38473513 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38473513), where I was arguing that the big tech companies have trickle-down effects that drive up wages across industries and makes devs more and more unaffordable to non-tech, non-FAANG companies. I've never complained about equity or such because I never had any, having never worked for a big tech company. Plus side, I never had to do leetcode either :) But even then, my last job was at a F1000 old-school manufacturer, and even there I was paid $100k, with free lunches, loose PTO, company paid trips, etc. -- all for making a simple frontend in React, utilizing less skill than I ever have before (because it's so specialized into that stack nowadays, vs the old days where you also had to deal with networking, sys admin, VMs, etc.) Those were cultural things they copied from tech companies. At other jobs before that, I was still paid much more than most of my peers, who had better education and who've worked their asses off for years. Before 2023, dev work could launch you into the middle class after just a few months of bootcamp and a good reference or two. What other profession is like that? I think that's my primary gripe with modern US SWE: it's a get-rich-quick scheme requiring little actual skill or training, and sometimes, little actual work. The work isn't that hard, and something like Upwork is probably more representative of what a realistic market would pay (much less). If I ever imagine myself to be fairly compensated because not everyone can do coding (which is true)... then I look at how teachers, adjunct professors, electricians, plumbers, truckers, etc. are paid and I realize yeah, no... I just sit on my ass all day, code a few hours a day and sit in on meetings and such and the money comes in. It's not even in the same league as other professions in terms of how hard you have to work vs how much you get paid. Especially when I look at my actual friends in tech proper, who work like 10-15 hours a week by their own admittance a week and make way more money. All around it just screams "bubble". We're not paid this much because of our skills. We're paid this much because capital was hoping to cash in on the hypergrowth before it bursts.

mattbrewsbytes 3y ago
In comparison we don't physically "do" much, which is true but its really absurd to compare industries against each other. Teaching is largely paid out of tax money and what politicians want to pay them since they usually control state and local budgets. That is a vastly different economic model than some billionaire VC dumping millions of dollars into a bunch of startups hoping he/she gets a hit. Or some Fortune 500 company that makes billions a year. There's a series on YT by a handyman who was literally paid $100/hr to replace a light bulb once. A skilled tradesperson in a town of tech workers that don't DIY anything probably makes bank. We're paid this much because the market pays this much. Its capitalism.
- solardev 3y ago
  I know :/ US style capitalism is what I'm complaining about. Ridiculous system.
sneed_chucker 3y ago
> If I ever imagine myself to be fairly compensated because not everyone can do coding (which is true)... then I look at how teachers, adjunct professors, electricians, plumbers, truckers, etc. are paid and I realize yeah, no... I just sit on my ass all day, code a few hours a day and sit in on meetings and such and the money comes in. It's not even in the same league as other professions in terms of how hard you have to work vs how much you get paid. Especially when I look at my actual friends in tech proper, who work like 10-15 hours a week by their own admittance a week and make way more money. All around it just screams "bubble". Honestly you're looking in the wrong direction. Yeah, there are lots of undercompensated lines of work. But lots of white collar work involves even less actual work or competence than software engineering. Offices are full of people who are terrible at their jobs but basically just fail upwards. Local governments and public school systems have tons of administrative positions that get paid big six figure salaries to basically do no real work.