5 ms·

I disagree, having been on both sides of PIPs. Not all PIP reasons are about not being a certain level of engineer. Sometimes it's about behaviors or the lack o

I disagree, having been on both sides of PIPs. Not all PIP reasons are about not being a certain level of engineer. Sometimes it's about behaviors or the lack of them. In some cases, the forcing function of a strict timeline with high stakes attached is what people need. Usually not, but sometimes yes. Anyway, it's a tool that's to be used as a last resort, 99% of performance cases should have a much lighter solution before they escalate.

vasco 3y ago
If you told them clearly about the behaviors and you need to start a PIP, I assume you took a few weeks to tell them and waited at least a few more weeks until you started the PIP, and if the behavior kept going for all this time, again, I can't see how the PIP will help anything other than being "this is what we do before we fire someone".
- throitallaway 3y ago
  Yes, in most cases PIPs are an ass covering and serve as a form of documentation.
- ochronus 3y ago
  The PIP does two important things: 1. Raises the stakes 2. Involves a 3rd party (yes, yes, we can argue that HR is not your friend, etc.), which _can_ help with the trust (it's not just you & me anymore, you not knowing how I twist my story of you) I get all the skepticism. I simply have different experience.
  - vasco 3y ago
    Yes I agree it does does 2 things, but remember my argument was to qualify that in the cases I mentioned I didn't think a PIP was passable. It doesn't mean you don't still have to do it, and yes, I guess in some extreme cases this raising of the stakes could be the thing that finally makes it "click" for the person that this is important. I just have seen enough PIPs and their pass-rates over a few years that I doubt them as a practical tool to actually get people to pass it. If that was the point companies wouldn't come up with a process with such a low pass-rate and would always be working to tweak the PIP process to increase pass-rates. Of course you might have different experience than this and I'll probably also change my mind if I see different outcomes in other contexts later on in life.
    - ochronus 3y ago
      I appreciate the context, and I definitely wasn't trying to say you're not right with your experience! We simply seem to have different experiences, I probably got luckier a bit.

vasco 3y ago

If you told them clearly about the behaviors and you need to start a PIP, I assume you took a few weeks to tell them and waited at least a few more weeks until you started the PIP, and if the behavior kept going for all this time, again, I can't see how the PIP will help anything other than being "this is what we do before we fire someone".

throitallaway 3y ago
Yes, in most cases PIPs are an ass covering and serve as a form of documentation.
ochronus 3y ago
The PIP does two important things: 1. Raises the stakes 2. Involves a 3rd party (yes, yes, we can argue that HR is not your friend, etc.), which _can_ help with the trust (it's not just you & me anymore, you not knowing how I twist my story of you) I get all the skepticism. I simply have different experience.
- vasco 3y ago
  Yes I agree it does does 2 things, but remember my argument was to qualify that in the cases I mentioned I didn't think a PIP was passable. It doesn't mean you don't still have to do it, and yes, I guess in some extreme cases this raising of the stakes could be the thing that finally makes it "click" for the person that this is important. I just have seen enough PIPs and their pass-rates over a few years that I doubt them as a practical tool to actually get people to pass it. If that was the point companies wouldn't come up with a process with such a low pass-rate and would always be working to tweak the PIP process to increase pass-rates. Of course you might have different experience than this and I'll probably also change my mind if I see different outcomes in other contexts later on in life.
  - ochronus 3y ago
    I appreciate the context, and I definitely wasn't trying to say you're not right with your experience! We simply seem to have different experiences, I probably got luckier a bit.