3 ms·

The solution is to simply not do it. Contrary to many's doomerism, x86 is likely here to stay for decades/centuries.

Rochus 3y ago
Even if so, ARM or RISC-V are more attractive architectures in many respects; and there are proof of concepts demonstrating that very lean operating systems with GUIs can be built with high-level languages, even with GC (see e.g. https://github.com/rochus-keller/OberonSystem3/); https://github.com/rochus-keller/OberonSystem3/); so writing such a thing in assembler is certainly impressive, but also a cul-de-sac.
- BanazirGalbasi 3y ago
  When the original project, MinuetOS, was started, RISC-V didn't exist yet and I don't think ARM was common enough. Even when this was forked from MinuetOS four years later the status quo hadn't really changed. If anything, it was moving more toward x86 because Apple was switching away from Power at the time. I don't think the lack of portability is much of a hindrance tbh. Portability doesn't seem to have been a goal of the project at all, so I'm not sure why we're judging it on a criteria they don't care about.
  - fl0ki 3y ago
    Trying it out in https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios , it's also clearly a love letter to Windows 95 in particular. That could be an unstated goal here, create a very particular PC experience under very particular constraints. I don't know anything about the creator but it's very possible that this kind of work was actually their career in the 90s. Most of the people who built those experiences are still around today, and not all of them have the visibility of Dave's Garage. It's incredible how much work was done. Maybe this should be an internet curiosity like how TempleOS has become, though Terry's personality was a unique factor.
  - Rochus 3y ago
    > so I'm not sure why we're judging it on a criteria they don't care about. It's not judging, but wondering and regretting that architecture independence was not a requirement. Personally, I have started in the late nineties to free my projects from the dependencies (or rather "shackles") of specific platforms and vendors. This has more than paid off. Otherwise, a large part of my many years of work would have been lost.
    - philistine 3y ago
      You're absolutely right to do it. There's one platform that's for all intents and purposes not portable (Windows) that has been extremely successful, but outside of that no one has survived by being wedded to only one architecture. I guess its a lesson for all those companies on ARM: always have a plan B.
      - Rochus 3y ago
        Well, at least there are many independent chip providers, and that they use the same ARM architecture (i.e. detail design specifications, etc.) even has the advantage that tools and know-how are re-useable by the companies using these chips (and that each of these chip providers has the ARM detail design at hand is even an advantage compared to RISC-V, where "only" the ABI is open source); in contrast MS is indeed a single provider keeping the source code of most of its products closed (which virtually makes it a potential "single point of failure" for a large market).
      - anticensor 3y ago
        Both Windows NT kernel API and Windows userspace API are designed to be portable across processor architectures, minus a few non-essential assumptions that are sadly assumed to be invariants by some userspace applications.
    - broken-kebab 3y ago
      There are different philosophies regarding software development. The project as it seems follows Chuck Moore's idea which says one must re-write more often (vs abstract away, patch over, extend above etc.), and be more focused on particular usages (vs betting on hypothetical future cases) to keep software unbloated, quick, and truly navigable by developers. Apparently, this approach is far from being popular (majority of devs probably doesn't even know such thing exists) because programmer's time has been very expensive for decades. So code quality, speed, and especially size became much lesser concern compared to time spent. But people do practice it as an art form in non-commercial projects, and to enhance their skills in optimization. Writing a whole OS with GUI, and apps in FASM apparently is one of such exercises.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  In some ways, ARM and RISC-V are also way less attractive architectures. The level of platform standardization is very small compared to x86. Market penetration (in personal computer market) is still small. By relying on x86 standardization (BIOS, VESA, ACPI...), KolibriOS can run on pretty much any PC without having to write a lot of platform-specific code. OTOH take some ARM machines - MacBook, PineBook, Raspberry Pi - what do they share in common besides ISA?
  - Rochus 3y ago
    Thus it's even more important that the software is designed for good portability.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      Why is it important? Do you know authors goals? My impression is that portability was not their goal, and therefore it was by definition not important.
      - Rochus 3y ago
        It's fair to assume portability was not their goal, unfortunately.
otabdeveloper4 3y ago
Yes, but it will likely be relegated to the legacy enterprise contract extortion graveyard of technologies.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Not just enterprise - industrial / embedded applications, retrocomputing / gaming. Did you know 386 clones are still produced today?

Even if so, ARM or RISC-V are more attractive architectures in many respects; and there are proof of concepts demonstrating that very lean operating systems with GUIs can be built with high-level languages, even with GC (see e.g. https://github.com/rochus-keller/OberonSystem3/); https://github.com/rochus-keller/OberonSystem3/); so writing such a thing in assembler is certainly impressive, but also a cul-de-sac.

BanazirGalbasi 3y ago
When the original project, MinuetOS, was started, RISC-V didn't exist yet and I don't think ARM was common enough. Even when this was forked from MinuetOS four years later the status quo hadn't really changed. If anything, it was moving more toward x86 because Apple was switching away from Power at the time. I don't think the lack of portability is much of a hindrance tbh. Portability doesn't seem to have been a goal of the project at all, so I'm not sure why we're judging it on a criteria they don't care about.
- fl0ki 3y ago
  Trying it out in https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios https://copy.sh/v86/?profile=kolibrios , it's also clearly a love letter to Windows 95 in particular. That could be an unstated goal here, create a very particular PC experience under very particular constraints. I don't know anything about the creator but it's very possible that this kind of work was actually their career in the 90s. Most of the people who built those experiences are still around today, and not all of them have the visibility of Dave's Garage. It's incredible how much work was done. Maybe this should be an internet curiosity like how TempleOS has become, though Terry's personality was a unique factor.
- Rochus 3y ago
  > so I'm not sure why we're judging it on a criteria they don't care about. It's not judging, but wondering and regretting that architecture independence was not a requirement. Personally, I have started in the late nineties to free my projects from the dependencies (or rather "shackles") of specific platforms and vendors. This has more than paid off. Otherwise, a large part of my many years of work would have been lost.
  - philistine 3y ago
    You're absolutely right to do it. There's one platform that's for all intents and purposes not portable (Windows) that has been extremely successful, but outside of that no one has survived by being wedded to only one architecture. I guess its a lesson for all those companies on ARM: always have a plan B.
    - Rochus 3y ago
      Well, at least there are many independent chip providers, and that they use the same ARM architecture (i.e. detail design specifications, etc.) even has the advantage that tools and know-how are re-useable by the companies using these chips (and that each of these chip providers has the ARM detail design at hand is even an advantage compared to RISC-V, where "only" the ABI is open source); in contrast MS is indeed a single provider keeping the source code of most of its products closed (which virtually makes it a potential "single point of failure" for a large market).
    - anticensor 3y ago
      Both Windows NT kernel API and Windows userspace API are designed to be portable across processor architectures, minus a few non-essential assumptions that are sadly assumed to be invariants by some userspace applications.
  - broken-kebab 3y ago
    There are different philosophies regarding software development. The project as it seems follows Chuck Moore's idea which says one must re-write more often (vs abstract away, patch over, extend above etc.), and be more focused on particular usages (vs betting on hypothetical future cases) to keep software unbloated, quick, and truly navigable by developers. Apparently, this approach is far from being popular (majority of devs probably doesn't even know such thing exists) because programmer's time has been very expensive for decades. So code quality, speed, and especially size became much lesser concern compared to time spent. But people do practice it as an art form in non-commercial projects, and to enhance their skills in optimization. Writing a whole OS with GUI, and apps in FASM apparently is one of such exercises.
The_Colonel 3y ago
In some ways, ARM and RISC-V are also way less attractive architectures. The level of platform standardization is very small compared to x86. Market penetration (in personal computer market) is still small. By relying on x86 standardization (BIOS, VESA, ACPI...), KolibriOS can run on pretty much any PC without having to write a lot of platform-specific code. OTOH take some ARM machines - MacBook, PineBook, Raspberry Pi - what do they share in common besides ISA?
- Rochus 3y ago
  Thus it's even more important that the software is designed for good portability.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Why is it important? Do you know authors goals? My impression is that portability was not their goal, and therefore it was by definition not important.
    - Rochus 3y ago
      It's fair to assume portability was not their goal, unfortunately.

otabdeveloper4 3y ago

Yes, but it will likely be relegated to the legacy enterprise contract extortion graveyard of technologies.

The_Colonel 3y ago
Not just enterprise - industrial / embedded applications, retrocomputing / gaming. Did you know 386 clones are still produced today?