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PIPs exist pretty much solely to create cover for firing someone[0]. Really just an awkward beaurocratic necessity with a deceptive name. [0] Almost all employ

PIPs exist pretty much solely to create cover for firing someone[0]. Really just an awkward beaurocratic necessity with a deceptive name. [0] Almost all employment in the US is 'at-will' so in principle anyone is fireable for any reason that isn't in a short list of illegal discrimination (e.g. can't fire someone for being black, or for not sleeping with you). In practice having even a flimsy veneer of poor performance becomes necessary as proactive legal defense.

hef19898 3y ago
You what's funny? When this PIP culture hits German labour laws. Then the result is basically pointless bossing, which ultimately results in, for the employer, rather expensive severance packages. Nothing funny about bossing, but funny that employers still want to force their head through a wall, instead of just offering the package they have to pay anyway from the get go.
- wil421 3y ago
  Large companies just stagnant hiring in one region or another to offset risk. I’ve seen companies hire like crazy in places like the US and India but the same people have been working in the UK/EU for decade(s) without any new hires. UK/EU companies will do the same and recoup costs by laying off regions like US/India because it’s easier. You can easily avoid these kinds of companies who are always hiring and firing. I’ve never had to deal with a threat of a PIP.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Companies hire where employees are cheaper, and where labor protections are weaker. All the time. They also are limited to hire in regions that can support their business, e.g. Poland in case of Germany. India wouldn't work for an inhouse team running order management for a German production company, but Poland might. Might because getting such an org off the ground, and running, takes considerable efforts which might not justify whatever salary savings one might have. That being said, Amazon in Germany is more like a up-or-out place than a hire-and-fire one for white collar folks. And the blue collar personal is pretty much treated like logistics workers at other places, read not really great. Salaries tend to be higher so (accounted for region and other things). No idea how things are on the ground in the US so, but I guess worse. Which seems to be a general thing so.
jeremiahbuckley 3y ago
> proactive legal defense From what I understand, PIPs and documentation save money compared to going through a lawsuit. In the event of a lawsuit, the “at will” employment principle would mean that the company would almost certainly win the suit (assuming not-illegal-discrimination), but it would be expensive to go through with the suit. Comparatively, a PIP, lots of documentation, and keeping the employee around for 6 months longer is a cheaper alternative. TBH, if AI makes a lot of legal action cheaper, this calculus might change. There’s a business product here: an AI mediator that all parties agree to use at the start of employment. Looks at all documentation at time of firing and says: “based on this, employee would average $X out of a civil suit. Company would average $Y to defend. Cut employee a check for func($X, $Y) and by cashing it employee agrees to relinquish rights to further legal action.”

hef19898 3y ago

You what's funny? When this PIP culture hits German labour laws. Then the result is basically pointless bossing, which ultimately results in, for the employer, rather expensive severance packages. Nothing funny about bossing, but funny that employers still want to force their head through a wall, instead of just offering the package they have to pay anyway from the get go.

wil421 3y ago
Large companies just stagnant hiring in one region or another to offset risk. I’ve seen companies hire like crazy in places like the US and India but the same people have been working in the UK/EU for decade(s) without any new hires. UK/EU companies will do the same and recoup costs by laying off regions like US/India because it’s easier. You can easily avoid these kinds of companies who are always hiring and firing. I’ve never had to deal with a threat of a PIP.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Companies hire where employees are cheaper, and where labor protections are weaker. All the time. They also are limited to hire in regions that can support their business, e.g. Poland in case of Germany. India wouldn't work for an inhouse team running order management for a German production company, but Poland might. Might because getting such an org off the ground, and running, takes considerable efforts which might not justify whatever salary savings one might have. That being said, Amazon in Germany is more like a up-or-out place than a hire-and-fire one for white collar folks. And the blue collar personal is pretty much treated like logistics workers at other places, read not really great. Salaries tend to be higher so (accounted for region and other things). No idea how things are on the ground in the US so, but I guess worse. Which seems to be a general thing so.

jeremiahbuckley 3y ago

> proactive legal defense From what I understand, PIPs and documentation save money compared to going through a lawsuit. In the event of a lawsuit, the “at will” employment principle would mean that the company would almost certainly win the suit (assuming not-illegal-discrimination), but it would be expensive to go through with the suit. Comparatively, a PIP, lots of documentation, and keeping the employee around for 6 months longer is a cheaper alternative. TBH, if AI makes a lot of legal action cheaper, this calculus might change. There’s a business product here: an AI mediator that all parties agree to use at the start of employment. Looks at all documentation at time of firing and says: “based on this, employee would average $X out of a civil suit. Company would average $Y to defend. Cut employee a check for func($X, $Y) and by cashing it employee agrees to relinquish rights to further legal action.”