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Microsoft is certainly within the rights afforded to them by the curl license to do this, but: > The provided functionality is certainly a very stripped down a

Microsoft is certainly within the rights afforded to them by the curl license to do this, but: > The provided functionality is certainly a very stripped down and limited version of the libcurl API. A fun detail is that the quite bluntly just link to the libcurl API documentation to describe how xCurl works. is IMO a major dick move. It seems inevitable that doing this will cause users with questions about xCurl to seek out curl maintainers/forums for support with xCurl (as with the email that prompted this article), even though they have no insight at all into how xCurl works. And some of those people might not be very happy with the response "we have no idea - try contacting Microsoft". Now, that might not have been Microsoft's deliberate intent, but I don't see how it's anything but completely forseeable, and should have been avoided. (Yes, Microsoft need to credit curl with the copyright info and license, but the place for that is the "Credits" and/or "License" parts of the documentation, not the "Usage"/"API reference" parts.)

fsniper 3y ago
Oh that's a huge dick move. And this behaviour you mention, "people seeking help from libcurl for xcurl" is an already documented and detrimental problem. You can see why Sqlite temp files has an extension of "etilqs". That's a grandiose example of this. That was not even a documentation link! https://github.com/mackyle/sqlite/blob/3cf493d/src/os.h#L52-L66 https://github.com/mackyle/sqlite/blob/3cf493d/src/os.h#L52-...
- bawolff 3y ago
  Another common example is people seeking help at upstream projects for packages provided by their linux distro that have subtle changes which upstream knows nothing about. Honestly though, that's life. I don't think its that big a deal, if you've ever done open source user support you'll know that people ask about all sorts of crazy things. You're lucky if they are even asking about software and not how to wash a car.
- otikik 3y ago
  Wow, fun one, thanks!
genocidicbunny 3y ago
> It seems inevitable that doing this will cause users with questions about xCurl to seek out curl maintainers/forums for support with xCurl I doubt this will be a large number of people. If xCurl is only available via the GDK, then you get access to it you need to be working for a company that has developer contract signed with Microsoft. If you are such a dev, you will also have access to the Xbox dev forums which _should_ be your first stop for GDK-related questions.
- klausa 3y ago
  GDK is much more open nowadays (AIUI you can basically deploy stuff to your own Xbox by just signing few things online?), but you're basically right. People are assuming this is meant to be a general-purpose, generic replacement; but it is quite narrowly focused on gamedev.
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    I think that's the case for 'Apps' but not games. Like I said in another post, my info is several years dated at this point, so things may have changed, but when I was in this field, if you wanted to publish a game vs a non-game app, there were many more requirements. Apps had pretty limited amounts of scrutiny and certification hoisted on them, while games had several hundred certification requirements for a ton of different things they had to meet. Apps also did not get access to the full capabilities of the console, whereas games did. Under the hood there were quite a few differences between how apps and games were provisioned, published and run -- games are almost like a container image rather than a regular windows app.
    - klausa 3y ago
      Oh if you want to _publish_ I'm sure it's a whole different ballgame, but if you're just playing around and/or developing a game (and don't need a full on DevKit), it's relatively straightforward.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    > you can basically deploy stuff to your own Xbox by just signing few things online Is this true? I've been wanting to be able to develop my own console stuff for a long time, but the hoops have seemed insurmountable so far. Can I really deploy my own stuff to Xbox without having to pay huge fees and have calls with a sales team? For publishing to some store, that's fine, but just for development I just wanna be able to get a build running without too much red tape, otherwise it's not fun and therefore not worth it.
bawolff 3y ago
I would disagree Yes, they should make it clear that xCurl has nothing to do with real curl. But if it intends to implement the same interface, I don't see any problem with saying look at the curl docs for what its supposed to do. I don't see how that would be much different then if you implemented your own web browser and was like, look at MDN for how its supposed to work.
- addicted 3y ago
  If this was an Alpha software that was created a few months ago and is rapidly changing then sure, link back to the original. But we’re talking about curl here. MS could have an intern copy paste the curl document, delete the stuff that doesn’t apply to XCurl, and host it on a shared OneDrive Word document all within a day, and it would be orders of magnitude a significantly better experience. Instead curl maintainers will end up spending man years supporting XCurl issues instead.
  - hducy4 3y ago
    Yea, but we're talking about Microsoft here. Why would you expect anything else? I get the feeling people think MS is different now it has embraced open source.
- Cogito 3y ago
  "Hey, your docs say that curl should be doing this, but it's not working for me?" <2 pages of back-and-forth posts later> "Oh you're using xCurl, yeah you need to talk to Microsoft." It probably depends on the reach this has within the intended audience (people wanting to deploy libcurl on Xbox?) as to how much of a support burden it will end up, but I suspect more than Mozilla has to deal with from similar situations.
  - cxr 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Lukas_Skywalker 3y ago
intelVISA 3y ago
Based on the limited implementation surface and marriage to WinHTTP I would've imagined simply writing their own API distinct from curl's would've been a smarter choice, albeit with worse SEO to leech from curl. ...Is SEO even a thing now in the GPT era?
- iforgotpassword 3y ago
  Then your could just use winhttp. The point of this is so you don't have to change anything in your game when porting to this platform/SDK.
  - intelVISA 3y ago
    fair enough in theory though I guess that didn't pan out if the "don't have to change anything" is leading to my man Dan receiving grief.
whoisthemachine 3y ago
I agree it is. A fitting return volley would be to insert a note in the documentation along the lines of "derivative implementations of curl may have important differences from the documented implementation. Please refer to the derivative implementation's documentation for any behaviors that don't appear to conform to curl's implementation".
HeckFeck 3y ago
Not at all shocking coming from the same company who replaced its OS-wide help system with a browser that displays Bing search engine results. Ludicrous and insulting, like it is saying LMGTFY.
- riddley 3y ago
  BuT ThEy'Re ThE NeW MiCroSoFt!!

fsniper 3y ago

Oh that's a huge dick move. And this behaviour you mention, "people seeking help from libcurl for xcurl" is an already documented and detrimental problem. You can see why Sqlite temp files has an extension of "etilqs". That's a grandiose example of this. That was not even a documentation link! https://github.com/mackyle/sqlite/blob/3cf493d/src/os.h#L52-L66 https://github.com/mackyle/sqlite/blob/3cf493d/src/os.h#L52-...

bawolff 3y ago
Another common example is people seeking help at upstream projects for packages provided by their linux distro that have subtle changes which upstream knows nothing about. Honestly though, that's life. I don't think its that big a deal, if you've ever done open source user support you'll know that people ask about all sorts of crazy things. You're lucky if they are even asking about software and not how to wash a car.
otikik 3y ago
Wow, fun one, thanks!

genocidicbunny 3y ago

> It seems inevitable that doing this will cause users with questions about xCurl to seek out curl maintainers/forums for support with xCurl I doubt this will be a large number of people. If xCurl is only available via the GDK, then you get access to it you need to be working for a company that has developer contract signed with Microsoft. If you are such a dev, you will also have access to the Xbox dev forums which _should_ be your first stop for GDK-related questions.

klausa 3y ago
GDK is much more open nowadays (AIUI you can basically deploy stuff to your own Xbox by just signing few things online?), but you're basically right. People are assuming this is meant to be a general-purpose, generic replacement; but it is quite narrowly focused on gamedev.
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  I think that's the case for 'Apps' but not games. Like I said in another post, my info is several years dated at this point, so things may have changed, but when I was in this field, if you wanted to publish a game vs a non-game app, there were many more requirements. Apps had pretty limited amounts of scrutiny and certification hoisted on them, while games had several hundred certification requirements for a ton of different things they had to meet. Apps also did not get access to the full capabilities of the console, whereas games did. Under the hood there were quite a few differences between how apps and games were provisioned, published and run -- games are almost like a container image rather than a regular windows app.
  - klausa 3y ago
    Oh if you want to _publish_ I'm sure it's a whole different ballgame, but if you're just playing around and/or developing a game (and don't need a full on DevKit), it's relatively straightforward.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > you can basically deploy stuff to your own Xbox by just signing few things online Is this true? I've been wanting to be able to develop my own console stuff for a long time, but the hoops have seemed insurmountable so far. Can I really deploy my own stuff to Xbox without having to pay huge fees and have calls with a sales team? For publishing to some store, that's fine, but just for development I just wanna be able to get a build running without too much red tape, otherwise it's not fun and therefore not worth it.

bawolff 3y ago

I would disagree Yes, they should make it clear that xCurl has nothing to do with real curl. But if it intends to implement the same interface, I don't see any problem with saying look at the curl docs for what its supposed to do. I don't see how that would be much different then if you implemented your own web browser and was like, look at MDN for how its supposed to work.

addicted 3y ago
If this was an Alpha software that was created a few months ago and is rapidly changing then sure, link back to the original. But we’re talking about curl here. MS could have an intern copy paste the curl document, delete the stuff that doesn’t apply to XCurl, and host it on a shared OneDrive Word document all within a day, and it would be orders of magnitude a significantly better experience. Instead curl maintainers will end up spending man years supporting XCurl issues instead.
- hducy4 3y ago
  Yea, but we're talking about Microsoft here. Why would you expect anything else? I get the feeling people think MS is different now it has embraced open source.
Cogito 3y ago
"Hey, your docs say that curl should be doing this, but it's not working for me?" <2 pages of back-and-forth posts later> "Oh you're using xCurl, yeah you need to talk to Microsoft." It probably depends on the reach this has within the intended audience (people wanting to deploy libcurl on Xbox?) as to how much of a support burden it will end up, but I suspect more than Mozilla has to deal with from similar situations.
- cxr 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Lukas_Skywalker 3y ago

intelVISA 3y ago

Based on the limited implementation surface and marriage to WinHTTP I would've imagined simply writing their own API distinct from curl's would've been a smarter choice, albeit with worse SEO to leech from curl. ...Is SEO even a thing now in the GPT era?

iforgotpassword 3y ago
Then your could just use winhttp. The point of this is so you don't have to change anything in your game when porting to this platform/SDK.
- intelVISA 3y ago
  fair enough in theory though I guess that didn't pan out if the "don't have to change anything" is leading to my man Dan receiving grief.

whoisthemachine 3y ago

I agree it is. A fitting return volley would be to insert a note in the documentation along the lines of "derivative implementations of curl may have important differences from the documented implementation. Please refer to the derivative implementation's documentation for any behaviors that don't appear to conform to curl's implementation".

HeckFeck 3y ago

Not at all shocking coming from the same company who replaced its OS-wide help system with a browser that displays Bing search engine results. Ludicrous and insulting, like it is saying LMGTFY.

riddley 3y ago
BuT ThEy'Re ThE NeW MiCroSoFt!!