4 ms·

Why do they use 12nm process node as opposed to SMIC 5nm or 7nm? Too expensive?

by DeathArrow 3y ago

bilekas 3y ago
I think it's down to the technological challenges that involves and they are just not there yet.
- throwaway4good 3y ago
  So far it appears that Huawei is the only Chinese firm producing chips on 7nm; while western commenters have stated that it is a SMIC process - I don't actually think they know for sure as none of these companies have made it official - in other words the process may be proprietary to Huawei. However 7nm is in volume production at a level so high that can do non-critical projects such as the Mate 60 phone rather than just the stuff where all imports to China are sanctioned (high-end AI chips, chips for spacefaring, and military). Likely other sanctioned Chinese chip designers will use the process as it appears that Chinese authorities want internal competition rather than just have one single dominant company (Huawei).
  - BSDobelix 3y ago
    >So far it appears that Huawei is the only Chinese firm producing chips on 7nm True a good video about it from Asianometry "China's 7nm Semiconductor Breakthrough" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk
    - throwaway4good 3y ago
      Some of this is simply because until the latest sanctions, other Chinese chip designers could fab at TSMC at 7nm. Also Huawei has a quite capable AI offerings: https://e.huawei.com/en/products/computing/ascend https://e.huawei.com/en/products/computing/ascend
      - dragonelite 3y ago
        But are you really willing to risk it all go into a TSMC based work flow just to end up on the US bad guys list.
        throwaway4good 3y ago
        I think even Chinese companies believed that Huawei was banned and sanctioned because they did something wrong and not just because they were Chinese and really good at what they do. Now of course they are all sanctioned and Huawei is sitting pretty with years invested in a sanctions proofed supply line.
        foverzar 3y ago
        > I think even Chinese companies believed that Huawei was banned and sanctioned because they did something wrong I'd be surprised to see anyone seriously thinking that way outside of the western bubble. I personally can't even recall what exactly they were accused of. Probably something typical along the lines of "tech theft" or clandestine? I do remember all this happening during Trump presidency, who was already attacking other Chinese companies (e.g. forcing Tik Tok to sell shares). And that there was some heavy competition for 5G stuff at the time. My impression (and definitely not mine alone) was that it was all about clearing the market.
Signor65 3y ago
As far as I know, it's because China does not have access to the latest fab equipment from ASML and have to use an older technology to manufacture their chips.
dragonelite 3y ago
Huawei probably has first dibs on capacity given their contribution to SMIC 7~5nm process.
manuelabeledo 3y ago
SMIC 7nm doesn’t scale just yet.
- monocasa 3y ago
  It scaled well enough for the Kirin 9000s. But that's probably why Loongson isn't on it, capacity is probably being spent on Huawei's next chip.
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    > It scaled well enough for the Kirin 9000s. For a meager 1.6 million phones sold to date. Again, 7nm is a fantastic milestone for a forge that does not have access to newer ASML equipment, but context matters.
    - monocasa 3y ago
      1.6M chips is orders of magnitude more chips than Loongson has sold AFAIK.
drtgh 3y ago
Does someone know what reference size to take for those SMC nanometers? It may sound irrational to ask this kind of question, but marketing killed the meaning of "nm" a long time ago. As reference, through electron microscope the sizes of Intel 14nm seems equivalent to AMD.TSMC 7nm [1] [1] https://www.techpowerup.com/272489/intel-14-nm-node-compared-to-tsmcs-7-nm-node-using-scanning-electron-microscope https://www.techpowerup.com/272489/intel-14-nm-node-compared...
- monocasa 3y ago
  They're aligned to TSMC terminology.

Why do they use 12nm process node as opposed to SMIC 5nm or 7nm? Too expensive?

bilekas 3y ago

I think it's down to the technological challenges that involves and they are just not there yet.

throwaway4good 3y ago
So far it appears that Huawei is the only Chinese firm producing chips on 7nm; while western commenters have stated that it is a SMIC process - I don't actually think they know for sure as none of these companies have made it official - in other words the process may be proprietary to Huawei. However 7nm is in volume production at a level so high that can do non-critical projects such as the Mate 60 phone rather than just the stuff where all imports to China are sanctioned (high-end AI chips, chips for spacefaring, and military). Likely other sanctioned Chinese chip designers will use the process as it appears that Chinese authorities want internal competition rather than just have one single dominant company (Huawei).
- BSDobelix 3y ago
  >So far it appears that Huawei is the only Chinese firm producing chips on 7nm True a good video about it from Asianometry "China's 7nm Semiconductor Breakthrough" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk
  - throwaway4good 3y ago
    Some of this is simply because until the latest sanctions, other Chinese chip designers could fab at TSMC at 7nm. Also Huawei has a quite capable AI offerings: https://e.huawei.com/en/products/computing/ascend https://e.huawei.com/en/products/computing/ascend
    - dragonelite 3y ago
      But are you really willing to risk it all go into a TSMC based work flow just to end up on the US bad guys list.
      - throwaway4good 3y ago
        I think even Chinese companies believed that Huawei was banned and sanctioned because they did something wrong and not just because they were Chinese and really good at what they do. Now of course they are all sanctioned and Huawei is sitting pretty with years invested in a sanctions proofed supply line.
        foverzar 3y ago
        > I think even Chinese companies believed that Huawei was banned and sanctioned because they did something wrong I'd be surprised to see anyone seriously thinking that way outside of the western bubble. I personally can't even recall what exactly they were accused of. Probably something typical along the lines of "tech theft" or clandestine? I do remember all this happening during Trump presidency, who was already attacking other Chinese companies (e.g. forcing Tik Tok to sell shares). And that there was some heavy competition for 5G stuff at the time. My impression (and definitely not mine alone) was that it was all about clearing the market.

Signor65 3y ago

As far as I know, it's because China does not have access to the latest fab equipment from ASML and have to use an older technology to manufacture their chips.

dragonelite 3y ago

Huawei probably has first dibs on capacity given their contribution to SMIC 7~5nm process.

manuelabeledo 3y ago

SMIC 7nm doesn’t scale just yet.

monocasa 3y ago
It scaled well enough for the Kirin 9000s. But that's probably why Loongson isn't on it, capacity is probably being spent on Huawei's next chip.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  > It scaled well enough for the Kirin 9000s. For a meager 1.6 million phones sold to date. Again, 7nm is a fantastic milestone for a forge that does not have access to newer ASML equipment, but context matters.
  - monocasa 3y ago
    1.6M chips is orders of magnitude more chips than Loongson has sold AFAIK.

drtgh 3y ago

Does someone know what reference size to take for those SMC nanometers? It may sound irrational to ask this kind of question, but marketing killed the meaning of "nm" a long time ago. As reference, through electron microscope the sizes of Intel 14nm seems equivalent to AMD.TSMC 7nm [1] [1] https://www.techpowerup.com/272489/intel-14-nm-node-compared-to-tsmcs-7-nm-node-using-scanning-electron-microscope https://www.techpowerup.com/272489/intel-14-nm-node-compared...

monocasa 3y ago
They're aligned to TSMC terminology.