3 ms·

The pro-Kissinger side will obviously have plenty of defense. Here's a good unrolling of the "piss on his grave" perspective for those who are confused (or angr

by Kye 3y ago

The pro-Kissinger side will obviously have plenty of defense. Here's a good unrolling of the "piss on his grave" perspective for those who are confused (or angry but concerned they may not be showing enough consideration to a different perspective): https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/henry-kissinger-war-criminal-dead-1234804748/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/henry-ki... Anthony Bourdain on Kissinger [0]: “Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević.” And [1]: "Frequently, I’ve come to regret things I’ve said. This, from 2001, is not one of those times" [0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1175241-once-you-ve-been-to-cambodia-you-ll-never-stop-wanting-to https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1175241-once-you-ve-been-to... [1] https://twitter.com/Bourdain/status/960322190993477632 https://twitter.com/Bourdain/status/960322190993477632

ninjin 3y ago
To quote Tom Lehrer: "Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize." Kissinger's legacy will be debated for a long time and I have personally only scratched the very surface. I do however intend to read Hitchen's "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" [1] one day, if not just to enjoy the fire with which he could write. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_Henry_Kissinger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_Henry_Kissinger
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Do you have a source for the Lehrer quote? I've been told he didn't say that.
  - ninjin 3y ago
    Good question. I have heard it referenced multiple times, but that does not make it true. Wikiquote cites The Sydney Morning Herald [1], but that is probably not a great source. I did a bit of digging online and also found The Guardian mentioning it too around the same time [2] (some twenty or so years ago). But I do not have a source that I would be willing to bet my life on. [1]: https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/art-and-design/stop-clapping-this-is-serious-20030301-gdgcoz.html https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/art-and-design/stop-cla... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2000/jul/31/artsfeatures1 https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2000/jul/31/artsfeatures... This feels like a rabbit hole best left to proper quote investigators (and a timely one at that). Lehrer is alive though (unlike a certain someone...), so maybe one could even ask him? Do you have a source questioning the authenticity? Not asking you to prove a negative here, just asking since I did not find one skimming a few pages on DuckDuckGo.
    - charred_patina 3y ago
      https://www.avclub.com/tom-lehrer-1798208112 https://www.avclub.com/tom-lehrer-1798208112
      - ninjin 3y ago
        Excellent! Thank you! Right from the man himself: "I've said that political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Prize." So his objection is not to the quote itself, but rather the implication that he would have retired as a form of protest in relation to said quote.
        aidenn0 3y ago
        Indeed, that must have been the source of my confusion.
      - aidenn0 3y ago
        That article is a gem; thanks for linking!
_cs2017_ 3y ago
I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu, and didn't understand how Kissinger's actions caused Cambodian Civil War. Can you explain? (I assume it is the Civil War the he's blamed for?)
- wisemang 3y ago
  Parent did not claim that Kissinger caused the war. Try reading the link you posted again. And maybe following it to this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
allturtles 3y ago
The first article reads to me as totally absurd: > Every single person who died in Vietnam between autumn 1968 and the Fall of Saigon — and all who died in Laos and Cambodia, where Nixon and Kissinger secretly expanded the war within months of taking office, as well as all who died in the aftermath, like the Cambodian genocide their destabilization set into motion — died because of Henry Kissinger. I don't know how to take such a claim seriously. AFAICT the evidence for this claim is that Kissenger fed some info about the peace negotiations to the Nixon camp during the 1968 election campaign. That's it.
- CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
  "some info" is an interesting phrase. The text of the Bible is "some info". The source code to Windows is "some info". The codes to arm United States nuclear missiles is "some info". Every "some info" has some level of classification. In this case, the "some info" is information about ongoing diplomatic negotiations. I think it's safe to assume that such information is at least Confidential (as defined under US Executive Order 12356 or 13292). And with that, I point you to https://www.funraniumlabs.com/2011/12/life-lessons-from-the-land-of-q-clearances/ https://www.funraniumlabs.com/2011/12/life-lessons-from-the-...: Maybe comment threads and trolls didn't exist during the time of the Vietnam War, but its message still applies.
- rtuulik 3y ago
  The claim is that Kissinger sabotaged peace talks thus extended the war in order for his guy to win the elections.
- acdha 3y ago
  The claim isn’t just that he passed along some dry academic trivia but enough specific details for Nixon to successfully convince the Vietnamese government not to accept the deal on offer, claiming he’d make a better deal of he was elected. Nixon never did say who tipped him off that the peace talks were happening, although he acknowledged how unusual it was, but if true that entire chain of events started on Kissinger betraying the confidences placed in him so he could secure the job he wanted in the next administration.

by Kye 3y ago

ninjin 3y ago

To quote Tom Lehrer: "Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize." Kissinger's legacy will be debated for a long time and I have personally only scratched the very surface. I do however intend to read Hitchen's "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" [1] one day, if not just to enjoy the fire with which he could write. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_Henry_Kissinger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_Henry_Kissinger

aidenn0 3y ago
Do you have a source for the Lehrer quote? I've been told he didn't say that.
- ninjin 3y ago
  Good question. I have heard it referenced multiple times, but that does not make it true. Wikiquote cites The Sydney Morning Herald [1], but that is probably not a great source. I did a bit of digging online and also found The Guardian mentioning it too around the same time [2] (some twenty or so years ago). But I do not have a source that I would be willing to bet my life on. [1]: https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/art-and-design/stop-clapping-this-is-serious-20030301-gdgcoz.html https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/art-and-design/stop-cla... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2000/jul/31/artsfeatures1 https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2000/jul/31/artsfeatures... This feels like a rabbit hole best left to proper quote investigators (and a timely one at that). Lehrer is alive though (unlike a certain someone...), so maybe one could even ask him? Do you have a source questioning the authenticity? Not asking you to prove a negative here, just asking since I did not find one skimming a few pages on DuckDuckGo.
  - charred_patina 3y ago
    https://www.avclub.com/tom-lehrer-1798208112 https://www.avclub.com/tom-lehrer-1798208112
    - ninjin 3y ago
      Excellent! Thank you! Right from the man himself: "I've said that political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Prize." So his objection is not to the quote itself, but rather the implication that he would have retired as a form of protest in relation to said quote.
      - aidenn0 3y ago
        Indeed, that must have been the source of my confusion.
    - aidenn0 3y ago
      That article is a gem; thanks for linking!

_cs2017_ 3y ago

I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu, and didn't understand how Kissinger's actions caused Cambodian Civil War. Can you explain? (I assume it is the Civil War the he's blamed for?)

wisemang 3y ago
Parent did not claim that Kissinger caused the war. Try reading the link you posted again. And maybe following it to this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

allturtles 3y ago

The first article reads to me as totally absurd: > Every single person who died in Vietnam between autumn 1968 and the Fall of Saigon — and all who died in Laos and Cambodia, where Nixon and Kissinger secretly expanded the war within months of taking office, as well as all who died in the aftermath, like the Cambodian genocide their destabilization set into motion — died because of Henry Kissinger. I don't know how to take such a claim seriously. AFAICT the evidence for this claim is that Kissenger fed some info about the peace negotiations to the Nixon camp during the 1968 election campaign. That's it.

CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
"some info" is an interesting phrase. The text of the Bible is "some info". The source code to Windows is "some info". The codes to arm United States nuclear missiles is "some info". Every "some info" has some level of classification. In this case, the "some info" is information about ongoing diplomatic negotiations. I think it's safe to assume that such information is at least Confidential (as defined under US Executive Order 12356 or 13292). And with that, I point you to https://www.funraniumlabs.com/2011/12/life-lessons-from-the-land-of-q-clearances/ https://www.funraniumlabs.com/2011/12/life-lessons-from-the-...: Maybe comment threads and trolls didn't exist during the time of the Vietnam War, but its message still applies.
rtuulik 3y ago
The claim is that Kissinger sabotaged peace talks thus extended the war in order for his guy to win the elections.
acdha 3y ago
The claim isn’t just that he passed along some dry academic trivia but enough specific details for Nixon to successfully convince the Vietnamese government not to accept the deal on offer, claiming he’d make a better deal of he was elected. Nixon never did say who tipped him off that the peace talks were happening, although he acknowledged how unusual it was, but if true that entire chain of events started on Kissinger betraying the confidences placed in him so he could secure the job he wanted in the next administration.