6 ms·

Yes, I keep on thinking that a premium market will develop for Toyota and Honda cars from roughly ~2006-2010. Those cars were the height of internal combustion

by webel0 3y ago

Yes, I keep on thinking that a premium market will develop for Toyota and Honda cars from roughly ~2006-2010. Those cars were the height of internal combustion technology without all of the electronics.

nerdponx 3y ago
I think that market has already developed. Look at prices for used cars from that time period.
- helij 3y ago
  They will outlaw them soon enough and good riddance. Whenever I drive behind one of these older cars they usually stink.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - artificialLimbs 3y ago
    You might like to push the recirculate button/lever when that happens.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    Seriously? Maybe a Honda Pilot, but not a Camry, Accord, or Civic, which are the big sellers during that era.
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    [dead]
A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
Yeah. I honestly don't know if I'd trade my 2006 Saab 9-3 Aero for a 2023 anything. No trouble, no nonsense, it's fast enough, it doesn't nag at me if I drive around the block without my seatbelt, and minor repairs are rarely more than $100. A few years back, I had a late model Mercedes GLS, and the damn thing was in the shop almost every other month, and each time it was at least $300-400. Mostly it was electronic components that were at fault; an error in the anti-theft system which cost me $2000 was too much to bear, and I sold the car at a loss...
- wredue 3y ago
  Pretty much all cars sell at a loss. The chip issues appreciating car values is not a generally normal thing for vehicle values.
- InvaderFizz 3y ago
  On most cars you can disable the seatbelt chime with the right sequence, it's just not advertised and won't be found in the manual, but is easily found online.
- lightedman 3y ago
  "minor repairs are rarely more than $100" 2005 9-3 Linear here. I wish minor repairs were that cheap. Wait until you need your water pump replaced ;) Get ready to squick hard at the required labor charges (water pump is integral to the engine IIRC, requiring the engine to be pulled.) Right now I need new spark plugs, injectors, and a turbo replaced, and a grounding strap issue somewhere I haven't been able to isolate. Gonna run me a small bit of change.
  - calvinmorrison 3y ago
    Hello fellow sabers. I wouldn't trade my 88 900T for anything. Its just about to crank over 340K
    - jabl 3y ago
      Well, that's a "real" Saab, the newer ones are just built on the GM standard platform with a bit of Saabish styling.
      - BluePen7 3y ago
        Don't forget the Saabaru
      - lightedman 3y ago
        2005 was the first year of GM ownership of the brand but SAAB engineers were still all over that vehicle. I could tell in my 9-3t. Definitely some wiring harness decisions you wouldn't see out of GM!
pjmorris 3y ago
Anecdata to your point: 1. In the world of Honda S2000's, all other things being equal the 2004-05 models command a premium over the 00-03 and 06-09 model years. 2. My wife (2022 Prius) sighs when she sees how attached I am to my 2008 CR-V. It has 220K miles and I'd be happy to drive it another 220K.
mcny 3y ago
Keep in mind if you're buying a used 2007 Toyota Camry that the oil burning problem was a Toyota Service Bulletin and not a recall. The TSB has expired. If the previous owner(s) did t do it in time, you can't do it for free anymore. You might need to "top up" half a quart of engine oil or do oil changes every three thousand to five thousand miles even with full synthetic oil, ignoring any Toyota assurances that you may wait longer.
- exhilaration 3y ago
  That oil burning fix for my 2007 Camry was a lifesaver, I had been quoted $8000 (more than the value of the car) to essentially replace the engine. Then one day the letter arrived from Toyota telling me they'd fix it for free. My sister is still driving that car! That made me a lifelong Toyota customer.
to11mtm 3y ago
I think a lot of companies started 'getting it right' during that time. FBOW however, the increasing demands of Fuel Economy and emissions standards led to a lot of poorly-executed moves for various companies from a reliability standpoint; Sometimes it's dual clutch transmissions or CVTs, sometimes it's stuff like cylinder deactivation or a cheaped out Turbo 4 or 3 cylinder design. And then, all the speeds on an auto in general now. It took a decent amount of time for (most of) the automakers to make a reliable 4 speed auto across their lines. Hondamatic 5 speeds warned of things to come, because first everyone started flipping to 6 speeds (emphasis on the starting bit, in 2006). Then over the next 10-12 years we got all the way from 6 speeds to 10, often without enough size increase budget to know it will all be reliable.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  To me it feels like Mazda did it right even though they got a lot of crap for it. Still feels like they are a hidden gem. What they did was focus on fleet average. Their thesis was whats the point of being green if you still are selling gas guzzling hogs and you just sell some garbage EV to offset them. So what they did was first drop their pickup truck and then develop a smooth and efficient 4 cylinder engine mated to traditional transmission to deploy across the fleet, then slowly migrate all of them to a hybrid drive and then finally move to a fleet wide EV architecture. This keeps the fleet average down while also not compromising in other ways like crummy CVTs. (Im not sure if they use deactivation.) Will it work? well so far their first EV entry didn't fare so well. But they are still on the move to hybrid phase and they make some pretty darn smooth cars these days.
  - to11mtm 3y ago
    Mazda does OK. They did have their own missteps (a diesel) but they at least haven't been Toyota'd like Subaru. > Their thesis was whats the point of being green if you still are selling gas guzzling hogs and you just sell some garbage EV to offset them. Ford doesn't do this, but at the same time I find it hilariously suspicious that despite the success of the Maverick, there doesn't seem to be any messaging about increasing capacity. And I say that because even as an early adopter -most- problems have been in the 'I can still drive it' category. And yet they won't increase production.
Tool_of_Society 3y ago
Under the electronic stuff the third gen honda fit is basically the same as my 95 honda del sol.
nwellinghoff 3y ago
Agreed. It was a time where the computer did all the important stuff of fuel trim, timing etc. but none of the bullshit. 2005-2010 was peak ICE. And the parts are dirt cheap!
xattt 3y ago
> Toyota … ~2006-2010 The 5th Gen Camry was one of the first, if not the first, cars with drive-by-wire throttle.
- localhost 3y ago
  My gone but not forgotten E46 M3 had drive by wire throttle in 2000.
blyry 3y ago
Absolutely. I have an 08 accord, an 02 Silverado and a 2019 odyssey for the wife and family. I want the safety and sensing upgrades for the family and road trips, but I get a bench seat and /real/ buttons! I'm averaging 20-30% of a new car payment keeping them running and replacing big parts, but I would spend double (maybe lol) that so I can keep the experience. If I had a commute longer than a half hour maybe I'd look into a Prius or Leaf? Just waiting for a cts-v wagon to fall into my lap....
hot_gril 3y ago
This is the era of my 3 cars, but really they weren't the height of ICE tech. There was a breakthrough in power/efficiency around 2018. I just like how non-fussy the older cars are and how they look.
- everdrive 3y ago
  The the breakthroughs you’re referring to are direct injection, then those come with their own downsides. Either severely reduced reliability (when solely using Gasoline Direction Injection (GDI) injectors) or increased cost and complexity. (When using a dual-injection setup, such as GDI + Port Fuel Injection (PFI))
lloeki 3y ago
I don't know of any car from that period that don't have electronics, they all have a bunch of sensors (lambda probe and whatnot), an ECU, ABS and ESP. Or maybe by electronics you mean the various fancy assists like lane keeping and whatnot? That said this electronics is rock solid, my '08 Civic Type-R is basically pristine mechanically and after 15 years only required maintenance of wear parts. The paint job though has time taking its toll, as varnish is peeling off in various places. Still with proper care I expect the car to last another 15 years without breaking a sweat.
kjkjadksj 3y ago
The ones from the 90s in good shape are already commanding higher prices after bottoming out like a decade ago. I don’t think the late 90s supra or s2000 ever got truly cheap.

by webel0 3y ago

nerdponx 3y ago

I think that market has already developed. Look at prices for used cars from that time period.

helij 3y ago
They will outlaw them soon enough and good riddance. Whenever I drive behind one of these older cars they usually stink.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- artificialLimbs 3y ago
  You might like to push the recirculate button/lever when that happens.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Seriously? Maybe a Honda Pilot, but not a Camry, Accord, or Civic, which are the big sellers during that era.
- DrThunder 3y ago
  [dead]

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago

Yeah. I honestly don't know if I'd trade my 2006 Saab 9-3 Aero for a 2023 anything. No trouble, no nonsense, it's fast enough, it doesn't nag at me if I drive around the block without my seatbelt, and minor repairs are rarely more than $100. A few years back, I had a late model Mercedes GLS, and the damn thing was in the shop almost every other month, and each time it was at least $300-400. Mostly it was electronic components that were at fault; an error in the anti-theft system which cost me $2000 was too much to bear, and I sold the car at a loss...

wredue 3y ago
Pretty much all cars sell at a loss. The chip issues appreciating car values is not a generally normal thing for vehicle values.
InvaderFizz 3y ago
On most cars you can disable the seatbelt chime with the right sequence, it's just not advertised and won't be found in the manual, but is easily found online.
lightedman 3y ago
"minor repairs are rarely more than $100" 2005 9-3 Linear here. I wish minor repairs were that cheap. Wait until you need your water pump replaced ;) Get ready to squick hard at the required labor charges (water pump is integral to the engine IIRC, requiring the engine to be pulled.) Right now I need new spark plugs, injectors, and a turbo replaced, and a grounding strap issue somewhere I haven't been able to isolate. Gonna run me a small bit of change.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  Hello fellow sabers. I wouldn't trade my 88 900T for anything. Its just about to crank over 340K
  - jabl 3y ago
    Well, that's a "real" Saab, the newer ones are just built on the GM standard platform with a bit of Saabish styling.
    - BluePen7 3y ago
      Don't forget the Saabaru
    - lightedman 3y ago
      2005 was the first year of GM ownership of the brand but SAAB engineers were still all over that vehicle. I could tell in my 9-3t. Definitely some wiring harness decisions you wouldn't see out of GM!

pjmorris 3y ago

Anecdata to your point: 1. In the world of Honda S2000's, all other things being equal the 2004-05 models command a premium over the 00-03 and 06-09 model years. 2. My wife (2022 Prius) sighs when she sees how attached I am to my 2008 CR-V. It has 220K miles and I'd be happy to drive it another 220K.

mcny 3y ago

Keep in mind if you're buying a used 2007 Toyota Camry that the oil burning problem was a Toyota Service Bulletin and not a recall. The TSB has expired. If the previous owner(s) did t do it in time, you can't do it for free anymore. You might need to "top up" half a quart of engine oil or do oil changes every three thousand to five thousand miles even with full synthetic oil, ignoring any Toyota assurances that you may wait longer.

exhilaration 3y ago
That oil burning fix for my 2007 Camry was a lifesaver, I had been quoted $8000 (more than the value of the car) to essentially replace the engine. Then one day the letter arrived from Toyota telling me they'd fix it for free. My sister is still driving that car! That made me a lifelong Toyota customer.

to11mtm 3y ago

I think a lot of companies started 'getting it right' during that time. FBOW however, the increasing demands of Fuel Economy and emissions standards led to a lot of poorly-executed moves for various companies from a reliability standpoint; Sometimes it's dual clutch transmissions or CVTs, sometimes it's stuff like cylinder deactivation or a cheaped out Turbo 4 or 3 cylinder design. And then, all the speeds on an auto in general now. It took a decent amount of time for (most of) the automakers to make a reliable 4 speed auto across their lines. Hondamatic 5 speeds warned of things to come, because first everyone started flipping to 6 speeds (emphasis on the starting bit, in 2006). Then over the next 10-12 years we got all the way from 6 speeds to 10, often without enough size increase budget to know it will all be reliable.

nebula8804 3y ago
To me it feels like Mazda did it right even though they got a lot of crap for it. Still feels like they are a hidden gem. What they did was focus on fleet average. Their thesis was whats the point of being green if you still are selling gas guzzling hogs and you just sell some garbage EV to offset them. So what they did was first drop their pickup truck and then develop a smooth and efficient 4 cylinder engine mated to traditional transmission to deploy across the fleet, then slowly migrate all of them to a hybrid drive and then finally move to a fleet wide EV architecture. This keeps the fleet average down while also not compromising in other ways like crummy CVTs. (Im not sure if they use deactivation.) Will it work? well so far their first EV entry didn't fare so well. But they are still on the move to hybrid phase and they make some pretty darn smooth cars these days.
- to11mtm 3y ago
  Mazda does OK. They did have their own missteps (a diesel) but they at least haven't been Toyota'd like Subaru. > Their thesis was whats the point of being green if you still are selling gas guzzling hogs and you just sell some garbage EV to offset them. Ford doesn't do this, but at the same time I find it hilariously suspicious that despite the success of the Maverick, there doesn't seem to be any messaging about increasing capacity. And I say that because even as an early adopter -most- problems have been in the 'I can still drive it' category. And yet they won't increase production.

Tool_of_Society 3y ago

Under the electronic stuff the third gen honda fit is basically the same as my 95 honda del sol.

nwellinghoff 3y ago

Agreed. It was a time where the computer did all the important stuff of fuel trim, timing etc. but none of the bullshit. 2005-2010 was peak ICE. And the parts are dirt cheap!

xattt 3y ago

> Toyota … ~2006-2010 The 5th Gen Camry was one of the first, if not the first, cars with drive-by-wire throttle.

localhost 3y ago
My gone but not forgotten E46 M3 had drive by wire throttle in 2000.

blyry 3y ago

Absolutely. I have an 08 accord, an 02 Silverado and a 2019 odyssey for the wife and family. I want the safety and sensing upgrades for the family and road trips, but I get a bench seat and /real/ buttons! I'm averaging 20-30% of a new car payment keeping them running and replacing big parts, but I would spend double (maybe lol) that so I can keep the experience. If I had a commute longer than a half hour maybe I'd look into a Prius or Leaf? Just waiting for a cts-v wagon to fall into my lap....

hot_gril 3y ago

This is the era of my 3 cars, but really they weren't the height of ICE tech. There was a breakthrough in power/efficiency around 2018. I just like how non-fussy the older cars are and how they look.

everdrive 3y ago
The the breakthroughs you’re referring to are direct injection, then those come with their own downsides. Either severely reduced reliability (when solely using Gasoline Direction Injection (GDI) injectors) or increased cost and complexity. (When using a dual-injection setup, such as GDI + Port Fuel Injection (PFI))

lloeki 3y ago

I don't know of any car from that period that don't have electronics, they all have a bunch of sensors (lambda probe and whatnot), an ECU, ABS and ESP. Or maybe by electronics you mean the various fancy assists like lane keeping and whatnot? That said this electronics is rock solid, my '08 Civic Type-R is basically pristine mechanically and after 15 years only required maintenance of wear parts. The paint job though has time taking its toll, as varnish is peeling off in various places. Still with proper care I expect the car to last another 15 years without breaking a sweat.

kjkjadksj 3y ago

The ones from the 90s in good shape are already commanding higher prices after bottoming out like a decade ago. I don’t think the late 90s supra or s2000 ever got truly cheap.