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Unix has gotten better while everything else got worse. We no longer have dinosaurs like LISP-M or TOPS-10 for the Unix-haters to get rose-colored nostalgia fo

Unix has gotten better while everything else got worse. We no longer have dinosaurs like LISP-M or TOPS-10 for the Unix-haters to get rose-colored nostalgia for. And Windows NT proved how terrible the alternative could be. The NT api and Powershell is basically the "Monkey's-Paw" version of what the authors wanted. Be careful what you wish for.

kazinator 3y ago
> Unix has gotten better Well, Linux has. Unix is the same old: when you log in to any of it (BSD, Solaris, AIX, ...), it's like a time machine back to 1990.
- dcminter 3y ago
  OSX is a Unix. I don't like it compared to Linux personally but I'm obviously in a minority there.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    The Darwin environment can be described as stagnant waters, where you need to bring in third-party FOSS package management in order not to be stuck with twenty-year-old forks of GNU utilities. It's no longer positioned as a server OS, which on the surface just looks like a business move, but I suspect it's because the kernel and surrounding environment aren't very good. The writing was on the wall for years.
- ahoka 3y ago
  I think this is Torvalds’ true genius: creating an OS as different as possible from UNIX while being compatible with it.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > Well, Linux has. Linux is getting worse. The freedesktop.org cancer is eating it from the inside (systemd, wayland).
  - kazinator 3y ago
    Plus bloat in general. Well, the Unix Haters complained about it! Let's see, what did they write: • “Being small and simple is more important than being complete and correct.” • “You only have to solve 90% of the problem.” • “Everything is a stream of bytes.” Well, everything is still a stream of bytes. The problems are maybe 95% solved, and things are no longer small or simple. E.g. could no longer have your kernel on one floppy disc, and a rescue image with glibc + utilities on another.
microtherion 3y ago
My recollection of the book is that many of the authors were fond of VMS, so they might appreciate NT.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Not at all: we all despise VMS, but are quite fond of ITS -- in fact ITS-LOVERS@AI was an alias for UNIX-HATERS@AI mailing list. Where AI is MIT-AI, a PDP-10 running ITS, whose 8 bit ARPANET address was 134. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13518273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13518273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15080221 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15080221
  - microtherion 3y ago
    I stand corrected, then! It's been a while since I last ready the book, but ironically, it helped me learn some UNIX concepts that had eluded me before.
- hulitu 3y ago
  NT is to VMS, whas C++ is to C (i let you find the reference in the Unix haters handbook). /s
- hulitu 3y ago
  NT is a pale rendering of VMS.
delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
> Windows NT proved how terrible the alternative could be Strong disagree. NT and the 'Windows way' is IMO superior to the UNIX model where everything is a bag of bytes. Actually try programming against the NT kernel, the Windows API, and try to use PowerShell seriously (without complaining about 'long commands'.

kazinator 3y ago

> Unix has gotten better Well, Linux has. Unix is the same old: when you log in to any of it (BSD, Solaris, AIX, ...), it's like a time machine back to 1990.

dcminter 3y ago
OSX is a Unix. I don't like it compared to Linux personally but I'm obviously in a minority there.
- kazinator 3y ago
  The Darwin environment can be described as stagnant waters, where you need to bring in third-party FOSS package management in order not to be stuck with twenty-year-old forks of GNU utilities. It's no longer positioned as a server OS, which on the surface just looks like a business move, but I suspect it's because the kernel and surrounding environment aren't very good. The writing was on the wall for years.
ahoka 3y ago
I think this is Torvalds’ true genius: creating an OS as different as possible from UNIX while being compatible with it.
hulitu 3y ago
> Well, Linux has. Linux is getting worse. The freedesktop.org cancer is eating it from the inside (systemd, wayland).
- kazinator 3y ago
  Plus bloat in general. Well, the Unix Haters complained about it! Let's see, what did they write: • “Being small and simple is more important than being complete and correct.” • “You only have to solve 90% of the problem.” • “Everything is a stream of bytes.” Well, everything is still a stream of bytes. The problems are maybe 95% solved, and things are no longer small or simple. E.g. could no longer have your kernel on one floppy disc, and a rescue image with glibc + utilities on another.

microtherion 3y ago

My recollection of the book is that many of the authors were fond of VMS, so they might appreciate NT.

DonHopkins 3y ago
Not at all: we all despise VMS, but are quite fond of ITS -- in fact ITS-LOVERS@AI was an alias for UNIX-HATERS@AI mailing list. Where AI is MIT-AI, a PDP-10 running ITS, whose 8 bit ARPANET address was 134. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13518273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13518273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15080221 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15080221
- microtherion 3y ago
  I stand corrected, then! It's been a while since I last ready the book, but ironically, it helped me learn some UNIX concepts that had eluded me before.
hulitu 3y ago
NT is to VMS, whas C++ is to C (i let you find the reference in the Unix haters handbook). /s
hulitu 3y ago
NT is a pale rendering of VMS.

delta_p_delta_x 3y ago

> Windows NT proved how terrible the alternative could be Strong disagree. NT and the 'Windows way' is IMO superior to the UNIX model where everything is a bag of bytes. Actually try programming against the NT kernel, the Windows API, and try to use PowerShell seriously (without complaining about 'long commands'.