6 ms·

If it is a great car, but flops because it looks weird, that's a shame. If it's a terribly-built car, with reliability issues, and a super difficult production

If it is a great car, but flops because it looks weird, that's a shame. If it's a terribly-built car, with reliability issues, and a super difficult production cycle, that's a shame, but for a different reason: you'd think after the snafu over the Model X, where certain features (the X-wing doors) were a production nightmare and ballooned the cost and tanked the reliability, they wouldn't make the same mistake again. But if that is the case here, then they did make the same mistake, but even bigger and with worse consequences. But ignoring all that, at least it's different, and I'm rooting for its success. If it fails, though, most likely Tesla will only have themselves to blame.

carlivar 3y ago
By "themselves" do you mean Elon Musk? I wasn't under the impression that Tesla was much of a collaborative environment. Musk bans Kanban and Toyota Production System principles after all.
- DennisP 3y ago
  Tesla has its own principles, and collaboration is a big part of them. One reason so many engineers apply to work at Tesla is that they get to see their ideas implemented quickly and without excessive bureaucracy.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    Cybertruck was announced in 2019, and production was pushed back several times in '21, '22 and finally '23. Sounds pretty bureaucratic to me.
    - DennisP 3y ago
      Or it was just hard. Plus it depended on 4680 improving and scaling and that was definitely hard. But look at all the models in production. They don't have discrete model years, they're pushing out new updates all the time, even for hardware.
    - dvngnt_ 3y ago
      the slowness could be explained by many things unrelated to their own bureaucracy
  - Veserv 3y ago
    There are very good reasons why safety-critical products do not "move fast and break people". It is generally frowned upon in civil society to disregard safety and human life just to satisfy your curiosity and greed. I understand that the executive team at Tesla does not care given that they push a unfinished, defective, and criminally unsafe product like FSD onto the roads to make their numbers, but it reflects poorly to portray such a ingrained sociopathic company culture positively.
    - DennisP 3y ago
      > Tesla's Model Y has been recognized as one of the safest cars of 2023 by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), receiving the agency's Top Safety Pick+ rating for the third year. https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1224/tesla-model-y-receives-top-safety-pick-rating-with-nearly-perfect-score https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1224/tesla-model-y-receive... > Teslas on non-highways with Full Self Driving (FSD) engaged had just 0.31 accidents per million miles representing an 80% reduction in accidents compared with the average vehicle. https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/accident-rate-for-tesla-80-lower-than-us-average-with-fsd/ https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/accident-rate-for-tesla-80-l...
      - Veserv 3y ago
        Oh great, the Tesla Safety report [1]. Can you let me know where in that “exhaustive” report I can find the number of accidents or miles driven used in that calculation? You know, the numerator and denominator? You know, the sort of hard-hitting data reporting expected out of a elementary school science fair project? Almost like they hide that information like how they demand NHTSA redact all pertinent information from the NHTSA SGO database of ADAS crashes [2] so that the public can not fact check them. Or like how their telemetry just happened to miss 90% of their confirmed fatal crashes which we only know about due to third party investigations as seen in the NHTSA SGO database. Or maybe like how around 50% of the crashes Tesla investigates are fatal, but they just choose to leave ~95% uninvestigated as seen in the NHTSA SGO database. They are just worried investigating the crashes they caused will show FSD is too safe. That report and Tesla’s reporting around FSD are gross, criminal malpractice. Only a sociopathic executive team and company culture would encourage safety reporting that intentionally deceptive. [1] https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport [2] https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-order-crash-reporting https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde...
fnordpiglet 3y ago
FWIW, I have a model X and love the falcon wing doors. I’ve never had an issue with them, but I realize it’s a lot of complex moving parts so wouldn’t be surprised if I do. However: * they open fully in really tight spots where normal doors wouldn’t (although a mini van slide door would) * they look awesome (although a mini van slide door never would) We bought the car because the seats were the only ones that didn’t give my wife problems, as she has various health issues, of all the makes and models we tried from various car makers. No idea why, the seats are fine for me but not the best of any car we tried. But it is what it is. However, despite that practical necessity that chose the car for us, the doors really are awesome and something unique in the world of cars. Likewise, cybertruck is definitely unique. It has a lot of awesome as well, so I hope it does well, even if it’s a PITA to make and has issues with reliability. Too many cars are generic retreads of generic retreads - it’s good to see new takes and design risks get funding and production.
- ClassyJacket 3y ago
  "they open fully in really tight spots where normal doors wouldn’t" I don't see how this helps. They're on the back, not the front, so the driver can't get any benefit. So you still always need to have room to open the doors normally.
  - Kirby64 3y ago
    Gotta put yourself in the shoes of a parent here. If you’re retrieving a child from the back seat, or are letting kids open the door themselves… you want something that is unlikely or basically impossible to smash into a neighboring car. Children aren’t careful, and if you’re trying to wrangle one in or out, you don’t want to also have to deal with the door. The front door you can control yourself, it’s not an issue.
    - Goronmon 3y ago
      Which is why mini-vans have sliding doors.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago

carlivar 3y ago

By "themselves" do you mean Elon Musk? I wasn't under the impression that Tesla was much of a collaborative environment. Musk bans Kanban and Toyota Production System principles after all.

DennisP 3y ago
Tesla has its own principles, and collaboration is a big part of them. One reason so many engineers apply to work at Tesla is that they get to see their ideas implemented quickly and without excessive bureaucracy.
- rchaud 3y ago
  Cybertruck was announced in 2019, and production was pushed back several times in '21, '22 and finally '23. Sounds pretty bureaucratic to me.
  - DennisP 3y ago
    Or it was just hard. Plus it depended on 4680 improving and scaling and that was definitely hard. But look at all the models in production. They don't have discrete model years, they're pushing out new updates all the time, even for hardware.
  - dvngnt_ 3y ago
    the slowness could be explained by many things unrelated to their own bureaucracy
- Veserv 3y ago
  There are very good reasons why safety-critical products do not "move fast and break people". It is generally frowned upon in civil society to disregard safety and human life just to satisfy your curiosity and greed. I understand that the executive team at Tesla does not care given that they push a unfinished, defective, and criminally unsafe product like FSD onto the roads to make their numbers, but it reflects poorly to portray such a ingrained sociopathic company culture positively.
  - DennisP 3y ago
    > Tesla's Model Y has been recognized as one of the safest cars of 2023 by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), receiving the agency's Top Safety Pick+ rating for the third year. https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1224/tesla-model-y-receives-top-safety-pick-rating-with-nearly-perfect-score https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1224/tesla-model-y-receive... > Teslas on non-highways with Full Self Driving (FSD) engaged had just 0.31 accidents per million miles representing an 80% reduction in accidents compared with the average vehicle. https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/accident-rate-for-tesla-80-lower-than-us-average-with-fsd/ https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/accident-rate-for-tesla-80-l...
    - Veserv 3y ago
      Oh great, the Tesla Safety report [1]. Can you let me know where in that “exhaustive” report I can find the number of accidents or miles driven used in that calculation? You know, the numerator and denominator? You know, the sort of hard-hitting data reporting expected out of a elementary school science fair project? Almost like they hide that information like how they demand NHTSA redact all pertinent information from the NHTSA SGO database of ADAS crashes [2] so that the public can not fact check them. Or like how their telemetry just happened to miss 90% of their confirmed fatal crashes which we only know about due to third party investigations as seen in the NHTSA SGO database. Or maybe like how around 50% of the crashes Tesla investigates are fatal, but they just choose to leave ~95% uninvestigated as seen in the NHTSA SGO database. They are just worried investigating the crashes they caused will show FSD is too safe. That report and Tesla’s reporting around FSD are gross, criminal malpractice. Only a sociopathic executive team and company culture would encourage safety reporting that intentionally deceptive. [1] https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport [2] https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-order-crash-reporting https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde...

fnordpiglet 3y ago

FWIW, I have a model X and love the falcon wing doors. I’ve never had an issue with them, but I realize it’s a lot of complex moving parts so wouldn’t be surprised if I do. However: * they open fully in really tight spots where normal doors wouldn’t (although a mini van slide door would) * they look awesome (although a mini van slide door never would) We bought the car because the seats were the only ones that didn’t give my wife problems, as she has various health issues, of all the makes and models we tried from various car makers. No idea why, the seats are fine for me but not the best of any car we tried. But it is what it is. However, despite that practical necessity that chose the car for us, the doors really are awesome and something unique in the world of cars. Likewise, cybertruck is definitely unique. It has a lot of awesome as well, so I hope it does well, even if it’s a PITA to make and has issues with reliability. Too many cars are generic retreads of generic retreads - it’s good to see new takes and design risks get funding and production.

ClassyJacket 3y ago
"they open fully in really tight spots where normal doors wouldn’t" I don't see how this helps. They're on the back, not the front, so the driver can't get any benefit. So you still always need to have room to open the doors normally.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  Gotta put yourself in the shoes of a parent here. If you’re retrieving a child from the back seat, or are letting kids open the door themselves… you want something that is unlikely or basically impossible to smash into a neighboring car. Children aren’t careful, and if you’re trying to wrangle one in or out, you don’t want to also have to deal with the door. The front door you can control yourself, it’s not an issue.
  - Goronmon 3y ago
    Which is why mini-vans have sliding doors.
manuelabeledo 3y ago