11 ms·

I wonder if hybrid being more reliable than gasoline cars is simply a function of most of those being Toyota, versus any effect stemming from the car being Hybr

I wonder if hybrid being more reliable than gasoline cars is simply a function of most of those being Toyota, versus any effect stemming from the car being Hybrid.

janalsncm 3y ago
To test that you could compare the hybrid versions against their ICE counterparts. For example hybrid Corolla.
whaleofatw2022 3y ago
Fwiw eCVTs are not at all like normal ones, frankly they are more simple than most other transmission types
stouset 3y ago
I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a component. But I would be surprised if that’s a primary reason. There’s just a lot more to go wrong with an ICE vehicle. You need oil and regular oil changes. A radiator, tubing, and antifreeze. An alternator. A carburetor and a catalytic converter. Timing belts. A exhaust system. None of this (as far as I know, IANAM) is needed for an electric vehicle. A disproportionate amount of what’s under the hood of an ICE has to do with managing the consequences of the “C” component of that acronym (heat, combustion gases, electricity generation, lubrication, carbon deposits).
- neogodless 3y ago
  You may have misread the parent comment, which talked about HYBRID vehicles being more reliable than ICE-only vehicles. Hybrid vehicles include all of the comments of an ICE vehicle, plus they have electric batteries and motors, and may have a system of transferring power from either system to the wheels. Overall they have higher complexity than either ICE or electric-only vehicles.
  - c22 3y ago
    They have higher complexity, but also more redundancy. Likely neither of the powertrains experiences the same rate of wear and tear as either would experience on ther own.
  - stouset 3y ago
    Apologies I did misread that.
  - hedgehog 3y ago
    This is not true, at least for the most popular Toyota hybrid drive train. It's probably got fewer moving parts than the ICE counterpart by virtue of dispensing with the automatic transmission. See sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38466406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38466406
    - zik 3y ago
      Check this diagram and tell me it's simpler than an engine and transmission. https://automotorpad.com/toyota/83449-funcionamiento-sistema-hibrido-toyota-prius.html https://automotorpad.com/toyota/83449-funcionamiento-sistema... It's essentially an engine, a transmission, another transmission (power split device), a drive motor and a generator.
      - hedgehog 3y ago
        Most of the images there are broken, all I see are some conceptual block diagram type things. Find a teardown of the hybrid unit and compare to a teardown of any automatic, look at the actual internal complexity and moving parts. I was surprised. Here's a video of the P710: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM
- TheCleric 3y ago
  Yes, but wouldn't a hybrid be a worst of both worlds? All the problems of an ICE engine AND the potential electric issues?
  - 303uru 3y ago
    I don't think so. You're using two low load, low power systems combined. The least reliable ICE systems almost always correlate to the more powerful ones.
- jansan 3y ago
  > You need oil and regular oil changes. Slightly OT, but I recently found that here in Germany there is a service where you can go to just like to a car wash without making an appointment. They will do the oil change for you within ten minutes or so and you do not even have to get out of your car during that time. This makes oil changes so much less annoying.
  - sumthinprofound 3y ago
    This has been common in the US for at least a decade now.
    - Riseed 3y ago
      I’ve never seen a shop that will let anyone stay in the vehicle while it was being worked on, even for something so simple as an oil change. Where did you find one?
      - solardev 3y ago
        In the US, this is really common. There a few big chains, like Jiffy Lube and Valvoline, but also a lot of local places. Just look for "drive thru oil change" on Google Maps
    - tshaddox 3y ago
      Jiffy Lube had 1,000 locations in the U.S. in 1989. According to my experience in the 1990s (limited mostly to the Midwest), quick oil change shops were ubiquitous even in small towns.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      Four decades ago where I lived then. I used them here 30yr ago.
  - alphager 3y ago
    What's the name of the company?
jansan 3y ago
Hybrid motors take a lot of stress from the ICE during load changes. This makes the ICEs potentially live much longer. A lot of taxis areound here are older hybrid Toyotas. They must have at least 400,000km mileage already.
- timbit42 3y ago
  A taxi driver in Vancouver had a 2004 Prius and drove it 1 million kilometres with only regular maintenance and no failures. Toyota bought it back from him and took it to Japan to study it.
  - imrehg 3y ago
    This sounded interesting, so looked it up, some more details in https://www.vanmag.com/city/people/vancouver-taxi-driver-worlds-first-hybrid-cabbie/ https://www.vanmag.com/city/people/vancouver-taxi-driver-wor... It looks like it wasn't the 1+M km version that they bought back, but the chap was an early adopter of Prius in that taxi role, and they bought back (exchanged?) his first one from 2001: > For those working on the next generation Prius 2004 model, Grant’s taxi held invaluable information about wear and tear.They struck a deal: Grant sent his 2001 model back to Japan for testing and had a brand new 2003 model delivered. Still excellent story, and good on him!
    - timbit42 3y ago
      I must have read 1 million miles, which would be 1.6 million kilometres.
bluemax 3y ago
My Toyota hybrid reliably does not start after 4 weeks not driving. The 12 volt (1 year old) battery is drained too much after such a period of inactivity. I was not expecting this from Toyota, pretty disappointing.
- woleium 3y ago
  to the fusebox with a multimeter batman!
  - baking 3y ago
    Unplug the USB chargers first.
- taylodl 3y ago
  Welcome to the motorcycling world! Today's cars continually start the engine - that's a huge draw. If you're going to leave your car sit more than a couple weeks then you should put your battery on a tender. Motorcyclists have been doing that for decades.
  - pcl 3y ago
    Why is that an issue for motorcycles?
    - Baeocystin 3y ago
      Tiny batteries have less headroom against phantom drains. Also, most motorcycles aren't daily riders, so the problem is exacerbated.
  - Syonyk 3y ago
    Yeah, I (not really) joke that everything on the hill gets plugged in. It makes life a lot easier. Even with no idle draw, lead acid batteries self discharge over time. Life got way easier when I just accepted it, and now I've got a pile of 6V/12V battery tenders that go into just about everything (I have no shortage of 6V vehicles out here too). That and block heaters. The tractor and truck both appreciate them.
Syonyk 3y ago
A standard hybrid (of the sort that a range of companies make, handwavingly a parallel hybrid with creep capability, which a PHEV is just a supersized version of) eliminates a huge swath of things that go wrong with ICEs. First and foremost, the transmission replaces the rather staggering pile of complexity of a modern automatic transmission, typically, with "a few motor/generators, some planetary gears, maybe a band that only engages when a motor is already stopped, and some power electronics." Compared to the 9+ speed automatics, this is dramatically simpler. Quite a few hybrids don't even have a mechanical reverse gear, it's just using the electronics for that brief period. But, beyond that, you generally aren't asking the engine to idle, or to provide "starting torque" for the car - the hybrid system handles that sort of thing well. On at least the Gen 1 Volts, the motor "idles" at about 1200-1300 RPM, vs the ~750 RPM in most other vehicles, because it's almost never needed at low speed (heating in the dead of winter is the one time I notice it). But you don't have low speed, high load operation on the engines (which is a hard regime to operate in), and you don't have rapid speed changes with gear shifts (which is certainly more stressful than smooth speed changes or continuous speed operation). You have less brake system wear, and... it goes on. I know there's this popular "Hybrids/PHEVs are the most complicated of both worlds, so they must be the most unreliable of all worlds!" thing going around, but the data is quite clear that they're exceedingly reliable in actual use, and the "most complicated of all worlds" things tends to zoom out far enough to avoid looking at the transmission or engine design at any level of detail.
- giobox 3y ago
  > "First and foremost, the transmission replaces the rather staggering pile of complexity of a modern automatic transmission, typically, with "a few motor/generators, some planetary gears, maybe a band that only engages when a motor is already stopped, and some power electronics." Compared to the 9+ speed automatics, this is dramatically simpler. Quite a few hybrids don't even have a mechanical reverse gear, it's just using the electronics for that brief period." There are very few PHEVs that aren't using the same automatic gearbox as the plain-ole ICE model. You are describing the architecture the Prius uses I guess? In almost all cases the manufacturer just wraps a small electric motor around the output shaft of the same automatic gearbox connected to a small battery. Mazda PHEVs - same auto gearboxes BMW PHEVs - same auto gearboxes Volvo PHEVs - same auto gearboxes Mercedes PHEVs - same auto gearboxes etc There are probably some other exceptions i'm missing, but few PHEVs have a custom gearbox. While they may be just as reliable in many cases, they are almost always more complex designs than their ICE variants.
Johnny555 3y ago
I thought maybe it was from mostly keeping the ICE engine in a comfortable power-rpm band, rarely making it lug at low RPM's to get the car going, rarely reving up to high RPM's, and never idling the engine, it's either running under load to charge the battery (or drive the car), or turned off.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
diogenescynic 3y ago
This is a great question!

I wonder if hybrid being more reliable than gasoline cars is simply a function of most of those being Toyota, versus any effect stemming from the car being Hybrid.

janalsncm 3y ago

To test that you could compare the hybrid versions against their ICE counterparts. For example hybrid Corolla.

whaleofatw2022 3y ago

Fwiw eCVTs are not at all like normal ones, frankly they are more simple than most other transmission types

stouset 3y ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a component. But I would be surprised if that’s a primary reason. There’s just a lot more to go wrong with an ICE vehicle. You need oil and regular oil changes. A radiator, tubing, and antifreeze. An alternator. A carburetor and a catalytic converter. Timing belts. A exhaust system. None of this (as far as I know, IANAM) is needed for an electric vehicle. A disproportionate amount of what’s under the hood of an ICE has to do with managing the consequences of the “C” component of that acronym (heat, combustion gases, electricity generation, lubrication, carbon deposits).

neogodless 3y ago
You may have misread the parent comment, which talked about HYBRID vehicles being more reliable than ICE-only vehicles. Hybrid vehicles include all of the comments of an ICE vehicle, plus they have electric batteries and motors, and may have a system of transferring power from either system to the wheels. Overall they have higher complexity than either ICE or electric-only vehicles.
- c22 3y ago
  They have higher complexity, but also more redundancy. Likely neither of the powertrains experiences the same rate of wear and tear as either would experience on ther own.
- stouset 3y ago
  Apologies I did misread that.
- hedgehog 3y ago
  This is not true, at least for the most popular Toyota hybrid drive train. It's probably got fewer moving parts than the ICE counterpart by virtue of dispensing with the automatic transmission. See sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38466406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38466406
  - zik 3y ago
    Check this diagram and tell me it's simpler than an engine and transmission. https://automotorpad.com/toyota/83449-funcionamiento-sistema-hibrido-toyota-prius.html https://automotorpad.com/toyota/83449-funcionamiento-sistema... It's essentially an engine, a transmission, another transmission (power split device), a drive motor and a generator.
    - hedgehog 3y ago
      Most of the images there are broken, all I see are some conceptual block diagram type things. Find a teardown of the hybrid unit and compare to a teardown of any automatic, look at the actual internal complexity and moving parts. I was surprised. Here's a video of the P710: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM
TheCleric 3y ago
Yes, but wouldn't a hybrid be a worst of both worlds? All the problems of an ICE engine AND the potential electric issues?
- 303uru 3y ago
  I don't think so. You're using two low load, low power systems combined. The least reliable ICE systems almost always correlate to the more powerful ones.
jansan 3y ago
> You need oil and regular oil changes. Slightly OT, but I recently found that here in Germany there is a service where you can go to just like to a car wash without making an appointment. They will do the oil change for you within ten minutes or so and you do not even have to get out of your car during that time. This makes oil changes so much less annoying.
- sumthinprofound 3y ago
  This has been common in the US for at least a decade now.
  - Riseed 3y ago
    I’ve never seen a shop that will let anyone stay in the vehicle while it was being worked on, even for something so simple as an oil change. Where did you find one?
    - solardev 3y ago
      In the US, this is really common. There a few big chains, like Jiffy Lube and Valvoline, but also a lot of local places. Just look for "drive thru oil change" on Google Maps
  - tshaddox 3y ago
    Jiffy Lube had 1,000 locations in the U.S. in 1989. According to my experience in the 1990s (limited mostly to the Midwest), quick oil change shops were ubiquitous even in small towns.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    Four decades ago where I lived then. I used them here 30yr ago.
- alphager 3y ago
  What's the name of the company?

jansan 3y ago

Hybrid motors take a lot of stress from the ICE during load changes. This makes the ICEs potentially live much longer. A lot of taxis areound here are older hybrid Toyotas. They must have at least 400,000km mileage already.

timbit42 3y ago
A taxi driver in Vancouver had a 2004 Prius and drove it 1 million kilometres with only regular maintenance and no failures. Toyota bought it back from him and took it to Japan to study it.
- imrehg 3y ago
  This sounded interesting, so looked it up, some more details in https://www.vanmag.com/city/people/vancouver-taxi-driver-worlds-first-hybrid-cabbie/ https://www.vanmag.com/city/people/vancouver-taxi-driver-wor... It looks like it wasn't the 1+M km version that they bought back, but the chap was an early adopter of Prius in that taxi role, and they bought back (exchanged?) his first one from 2001: > For those working on the next generation Prius 2004 model, Grant’s taxi held invaluable information about wear and tear.They struck a deal: Grant sent his 2001 model back to Japan for testing and had a brand new 2003 model delivered. Still excellent story, and good on him!
  - timbit42 3y ago
    I must have read 1 million miles, which would be 1.6 million kilometres.

bluemax 3y ago

My Toyota hybrid reliably does not start after 4 weeks not driving. The 12 volt (1 year old) battery is drained too much after such a period of inactivity. I was not expecting this from Toyota, pretty disappointing.

woleium 3y ago
to the fusebox with a multimeter batman!
- baking 3y ago
  Unplug the USB chargers first.
taylodl 3y ago
Welcome to the motorcycling world! Today's cars continually start the engine - that's a huge draw. If you're going to leave your car sit more than a couple weeks then you should put your battery on a tender. Motorcyclists have been doing that for decades.
- pcl 3y ago
  Why is that an issue for motorcycles?
  - Baeocystin 3y ago
    Tiny batteries have less headroom against phantom drains. Also, most motorcycles aren't daily riders, so the problem is exacerbated.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  Yeah, I (not really) joke that everything on the hill gets plugged in. It makes life a lot easier. Even with no idle draw, lead acid batteries self discharge over time. Life got way easier when I just accepted it, and now I've got a pile of 6V/12V battery tenders that go into just about everything (I have no shortage of 6V vehicles out here too). That and block heaters. The tractor and truck both appreciate them.

Syonyk 3y ago

A standard hybrid (of the sort that a range of companies make, handwavingly a parallel hybrid with creep capability, which a PHEV is just a supersized version of) eliminates a huge swath of things that go wrong with ICEs. First and foremost, the transmission replaces the rather staggering pile of complexity of a modern automatic transmission, typically, with "a few motor/generators, some planetary gears, maybe a band that only engages when a motor is already stopped, and some power electronics." Compared to the 9+ speed automatics, this is dramatically simpler. Quite a few hybrids don't even have a mechanical reverse gear, it's just using the electronics for that brief period. But, beyond that, you generally aren't asking the engine to idle, or to provide "starting torque" for the car - the hybrid system handles that sort of thing well. On at least the Gen 1 Volts, the motor "idles" at about 1200-1300 RPM, vs the ~750 RPM in most other vehicles, because it's almost never needed at low speed (heating in the dead of winter is the one time I notice it). But you don't have low speed, high load operation on the engines (which is a hard regime to operate in), and you don't have rapid speed changes with gear shifts (which is certainly more stressful than smooth speed changes or continuous speed operation). You have less brake system wear, and... it goes on. I know there's this popular "Hybrids/PHEVs are the most complicated of both worlds, so they must be the most unreliable of all worlds!" thing going around, but the data is quite clear that they're exceedingly reliable in actual use, and the "most complicated of all worlds" things tends to zoom out far enough to avoid looking at the transmission or engine design at any level of detail.

giobox 3y ago
> "First and foremost, the transmission replaces the rather staggering pile of complexity of a modern automatic transmission, typically, with "a few motor/generators, some planetary gears, maybe a band that only engages when a motor is already stopped, and some power electronics." Compared to the 9+ speed automatics, this is dramatically simpler. Quite a few hybrids don't even have a mechanical reverse gear, it's just using the electronics for that brief period." There are very few PHEVs that aren't using the same automatic gearbox as the plain-ole ICE model. You are describing the architecture the Prius uses I guess? In almost all cases the manufacturer just wraps a small electric motor around the output shaft of the same automatic gearbox connected to a small battery. Mazda PHEVs - same auto gearboxes BMW PHEVs - same auto gearboxes Volvo PHEVs - same auto gearboxes Mercedes PHEVs - same auto gearboxes etc There are probably some other exceptions i'm missing, but few PHEVs have a custom gearbox. While they may be just as reliable in many cases, they are almost always more complex designs than their ICE variants.

Johnny555 3y ago

I thought maybe it was from mostly keeping the ICE engine in a comfortable power-rpm band, rarely making it lug at low RPM's to get the car going, rarely reving up to high RPM's, and never idling the engine, it's either running under load to charge the battery (or drive the car), or turned off.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

diogenescynic 3y ago

This is a great question!