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What kind of power grid can supply electricity to a country full of EVs?

adrianN 3y ago
The existing power grid basically with maybe some local improvements. An ev the charges while parked averages to less power than an electric kettle.
- boatsie 3y ago
  A charging EV can draw 30-50 amps @220V, much more than a kettle…
  - dzhiurgis 3y ago
    Keyword - averages. 50km a day is about 7kwh which is about 500w on average. That said my basic calculation for New Zealand is additional 50% is needed. Probably easy peasy if we get over lobby given how much existing hydro we have and capacity for sun and wind. Using Chinese offshore wind turbine costs my estimate was 1/3rd of some major railway project cost we are considering…
  - acdha 3y ago
    Hence the word “averages”: most people are going to do that every week or two overnight, when demand is well below peak. If you want a harder problem, it’s electric building heat in cold climates.
huijzer 3y ago
Today's power grid with some upgrades. The 1910s power grid also wouldn't be able to handle today's load.
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  > with some upgrades You are vastly, vastly underestimating the amount of investment required. It's in the trillions of dollars.
  - huijzer 3y ago
    Does that number include new ways of doing things? For example, more decentralized generation/storage?
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Hardly. Perhaps you're confusing with the costs of a transition to a carbon-free grid. That will cost trillions up front but save even more trillions over time. Electric vehicles will add 20% to our electric energy requirements, but a lot less than 20% to our power requirements. Peak power is ~6PM during times of extreme weather. Some cars are being charged at that time, but most are charged overnight.
  - dzhiurgis 3y ago
    In my case it’s 50% of cars cost. Maybe 25% if I tried really hard.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Even if that’s not the exaggeration it appears to be, fossil fuel production alone is subsidized to the tune of trillions of dollars per year. If you’re saying we can stop that going forward and use less than a year’s savings to make one-time improvements which will prevent disasters and improve health for millions of people, that sounds like a great deal even if we had a choice (which we don’t).
  - afpx 3y ago
    I’m more concerned with lack of chargers. Between DC and Pittsburgh, there are only a few chargers. There are probably more than 100 gas stations.
    - instagib 3y ago
      Wait until all vehicles can charge at the working Tesla network which includes a fee for charging past 90% charge on a $1 per minute basis. Then another charge of a full charging station per minute fee. https://electrek.co/2023/11/21/tesla-launches-supercharger-congestion-fee-at-1-per-min-at-90-charge/ https://electrek.co/2023/11/21/tesla-launches-supercharger-c...
binarymax 3y ago
Related and interesting: my local monopoly utility company RG&E is pushing for EVs hard. They stand to make a fortune if everyone all of a sudden needs to plug a car or truck into their grid.
- TKnab 3y ago
  Hey there, fellow Rochesterian. Too bad the county declined to do that feasibility study on replacing RG&E with a public utility... That said, yeah, personally I would like an EV, but RG&E's push is somewhat off-putting, especially with the insane billing issues I, and many others [1], have had recently. [1] https://www.wxxinews.org/local-news/2023-02-07/complaints-over-rg-e-billing-still-spiking-despite-claims-of-progress https://www.wxxinews.org/local-news/2023-02-07/complaints-ov...
belltaco 3y ago
1920: What kind of infrastructure can supply gasoline to a country full of cars? Meanwhile horse driven carriages have a strong supply chain.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
The US went from something like 10% of buildings with air conditioning to 90% in two decades. That was a harder problem than switching all gasoline cars to EV.
taylodl 3y ago
The average American drives 37 miles per day. EVs can travel 4 miles per kWH. That's 9.25 kWH required for the average American, every day. The average American household consume 30 kWH of power every day. You may think we need we therefore need a 33% increase in power generation just for every household to have a single EV, but that's not quite true. We need to factor in that residential electrical usage only comprises 40% of total electrical usage. That 33% increase suddenly becomes a 13.2% increase. Even that's not the whole picture because refining oil to make gasoline requires 5 kWH of power per gallon. Most of that power comes from burning oil, but 40% of it is coming off the grid. That's 2 kWH of power coming off the grid to refine that 1 gallon of gas. Since the average American drives 37 miles per day, we'll say they're consuming roughly 1.5 gallons of gas per day, which used 3 kWH of power from the grid to refine. If you work it all through you end up needing an 8% increase in generation to support every single US household having an EV (and it's an additional 8% for every additional EV). Sounds like a lot, right? No. There are vast differences in the demand for power from on-peak (during the day) and off-peak (during the evening) power. Vast enough that households can charge two EVs at night during the off-peak period and still not constrain the grid. Getting back to your question - what kind of power grid can supply electricity to a country full of EVs? The grid we already have.
- thmsths 3y ago
  This is a real eye opener, thank you for your comment. I always thought that grid upgrades for EVs were squarely in the "feasible" category so I always dismissed the "but what about the grid?" anti EV arguments. But I did not realize we were almost there already!
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  And the net reduction on pollution? zero Because by the time the EV left the dealership, it already polluted more.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Not true. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth2 https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myt...
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
This question gets asked so often despite being answered that I refuse to believe that anybody asking it is actually interested in learning the answer and thinks they just have a clever anti-EV "gotcha!" question. Most of the grid will handle it fine. People in very rural areas where it's common to only get 60 amp service might have a problem. But they probably weren't going to get an EV anyways.
audunw 3y ago
Norways. With no upgrades. The Norwegian Water Resources and Energy Directorate has a study showing the details. That’s assuming that most people charge at night. But that’s already happening. Setting up a modern EV to charge based on electricity prices is dead simple. And since electricity is more expensive when the load on the grid is highest, people wanting to charge their cars in the cheapest way will necessarily charge in a way that doesn’t overload the grid. Norway does have a pretty strong grid. It has primarily used electricity for heating, with some wood but not much gas. People are transitioning to heat pumps and improving insulation as well so the load on the grid from heating is actually going down too. Other countries may eventually need some grid upgrades. But how is that an insurmountable issue? The grid has been upgraded in response to increased demands many times before. The same battery tech going into EVs is helping improve and stabilise the grid, and helping some people reduce their energy consumption from the grid to near zero with solar+battery storage. So seems like EVs help contribute to the exact kind of R&D needed to take some of the added load off the grid.

The existing power grid basically with maybe some local improvements. An ev the charges while parked averages to less power than an electric kettle.

boatsie 3y ago
A charging EV can draw 30-50 amps @220V, much more than a kettle…
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  Keyword - averages. 50km a day is about 7kwh which is about 500w on average. That said my basic calculation for New Zealand is additional 50% is needed. Probably easy peasy if we get over lobby given how much existing hydro we have and capacity for sun and wind. Using Chinese offshore wind turbine costs my estimate was 1/3rd of some major railway project cost we are considering…
- acdha 3y ago
  Hence the word “averages”: most people are going to do that every week or two overnight, when demand is well below peak. If you want a harder problem, it’s electric building heat in cold climates.

huijzer 3y ago

Today's power grid with some upgrades. The 1910s power grid also wouldn't be able to handle today's load.

nathanaldensr 3y ago
> with some upgrades You are vastly, vastly underestimating the amount of investment required. It's in the trillions of dollars.
- huijzer 3y ago
  Does that number include new ways of doing things? For example, more decentralized generation/storage?
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Hardly. Perhaps you're confusing with the costs of a transition to a carbon-free grid. That will cost trillions up front but save even more trillions over time. Electric vehicles will add 20% to our electric energy requirements, but a lot less than 20% to our power requirements. Peak power is ~6PM during times of extreme weather. Some cars are being charged at that time, but most are charged overnight.
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  In my case it’s 50% of cars cost. Maybe 25% if I tried really hard.
- acdha 3y ago
  Even if that’s not the exaggeration it appears to be, fossil fuel production alone is subsidized to the tune of trillions of dollars per year. If you’re saying we can stop that going forward and use less than a year’s savings to make one-time improvements which will prevent disasters and improve health for millions of people, that sounds like a great deal even if we had a choice (which we don’t).
- afpx 3y ago
  I’m more concerned with lack of chargers. Between DC and Pittsburgh, there are only a few chargers. There are probably more than 100 gas stations.
  - instagib 3y ago
    Wait until all vehicles can charge at the working Tesla network which includes a fee for charging past 90% charge on a $1 per minute basis. Then another charge of a full charging station per minute fee. https://electrek.co/2023/11/21/tesla-launches-supercharger-congestion-fee-at-1-per-min-at-90-charge/ https://electrek.co/2023/11/21/tesla-launches-supercharger-c...

binarymax 3y ago

Related and interesting: my local monopoly utility company RG&E is pushing for EVs hard. They stand to make a fortune if everyone all of a sudden needs to plug a car or truck into their grid.

TKnab 3y ago
Hey there, fellow Rochesterian. Too bad the county declined to do that feasibility study on replacing RG&E with a public utility... That said, yeah, personally I would like an EV, but RG&E's push is somewhat off-putting, especially with the insane billing issues I, and many others [1], have had recently. [1] https://www.wxxinews.org/local-news/2023-02-07/complaints-over-rg-e-billing-still-spiking-despite-claims-of-progress https://www.wxxinews.org/local-news/2023-02-07/complaints-ov...

belltaco 3y ago

1920: What kind of infrastructure can supply gasoline to a country full of cars? Meanwhile horse driven carriages have a strong supply chain.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

The US went from something like 10% of buildings with air conditioning to 90% in two decades. That was a harder problem than switching all gasoline cars to EV.

taylodl 3y ago

The average American drives 37 miles per day. EVs can travel 4 miles per kWH. That's 9.25 kWH required for the average American, every day. The average American household consume 30 kWH of power every day. You may think we need we therefore need a 33% increase in power generation just for every household to have a single EV, but that's not quite true. We need to factor in that residential electrical usage only comprises 40% of total electrical usage. That 33% increase suddenly becomes a 13.2% increase. Even that's not the whole picture because refining oil to make gasoline requires 5 kWH of power per gallon. Most of that power comes from burning oil, but 40% of it is coming off the grid. That's 2 kWH of power coming off the grid to refine that 1 gallon of gas. Since the average American drives 37 miles per day, we'll say they're consuming roughly 1.5 gallons of gas per day, which used 3 kWH of power from the grid to refine. If you work it all through you end up needing an 8% increase in generation to support every single US household having an EV (and it's an additional 8% for every additional EV). Sounds like a lot, right? No. There are vast differences in the demand for power from on-peak (during the day) and off-peak (during the evening) power. Vast enough that households can charge two EVs at night during the off-peak period and still not constrain the grid. Getting back to your question - what kind of power grid can supply electricity to a country full of EVs? The grid we already have.

thmsths 3y ago
This is a real eye opener, thank you for your comment. I always thought that grid upgrades for EVs were squarely in the "feasible" category so I always dismissed the "but what about the grid?" anti EV arguments. But I did not realize we were almost there already!
29athrowaway 3y ago
And the net reduction on pollution? zero Because by the time the EV left the dealership, it already polluted more.
- belltaco 3y ago
  Not true. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth2 https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myt...

Sohcahtoa82 3y ago

This question gets asked so often despite being answered that I refuse to believe that anybody asking it is actually interested in learning the answer and thinks they just have a clever anti-EV "gotcha!" question. Most of the grid will handle it fine. People in very rural areas where it's common to only get 60 amp service might have a problem. But they probably weren't going to get an EV anyways.

audunw 3y ago

Norways. With no upgrades. The Norwegian Water Resources and Energy Directorate has a study showing the details. That’s assuming that most people charge at night. But that’s already happening. Setting up a modern EV to charge based on electricity prices is dead simple. And since electricity is more expensive when the load on the grid is highest, people wanting to charge their cars in the cheapest way will necessarily charge in a way that doesn’t overload the grid. Norway does have a pretty strong grid. It has primarily used electricity for heating, with some wood but not much gas. People are transitioning to heat pumps and improving insulation as well so the load on the grid from heating is actually going down too. Other countries may eventually need some grid upgrades. But how is that an insurmountable issue? The grid has been upgraded in response to increased demands many times before. The same battery tech going into EVs is helping improve and stabilise the grid, and helping some people reduce their energy consumption from the grid to near zero with solar+battery storage. So seems like EVs help contribute to the exact kind of R&D needed to take some of the added load off the grid.