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I agree that it feels trite and fake. The way to get things done with difficult people is: 1. Work out (for yourself) what you really want* 2. Work out (for

by jddj 3y ago

I agree that it feels trite and fake. The way to get things done with difficult people is: 1. Work out (for yourself) what you really want* 2. Work out (for yourself) what they really want* 3. Accept that they want that 4. Work maturely and fairly within that context. No cookie cutter management fluff is going to get you anywhere useful with intelligent people. * Usually people want their situation to either be more rewarding (read: recognition or control) or less taxing. Edit: Acknowledging this here, because it does apply to this comment: 5. Draw the rest of the owl

saghm 3y ago
At least personally, the people I've found difficult to work with aren't ones who I don't know what they want; it's that what they want conflicts with what I want. Usually, this boils down to "they want to decide how everything is done and not have to justify it to me, and I want to not just blindly follow what they tell me to do". Trying to "work maturely and fairly within that context" is directly at odds with what they want in those cases.
- jddj 3y ago
  There is a lot of that. I have one who in no exaggerated terms needs every good thing to have been their idea and will reframe what their role was in anything that turns out to have been a waste of time/money. They want, more than anything, approval and recognition - to an embarrassing extent. It's not fun and I'd have it almost any other way given the choice, but we've achieved a lot despite that and observers so far have been astute enough to see things for what they are.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
> No cookie cutter management fluff is going to get you anywhere useful with intelligent people. bollocks. intelligent people are just as susceptible to advertising, charisma, good looks, "presence", flattery, threats, and other manipulation as anyone. The bar may be a little higher, but everyone has intrinsic biases regardless of IQ, and it's not hard to flesh those out through interactions, then pander to them. These are all part and parcel of the management toolkit and if you don't think they are then chances are they're working on you right now. "Advertising works, even when you know how advertising works".
- jddj 3y ago
  I don't disagree with much of that at all. Intelligent wasn't some nod to the learned class or a differentiator, I meant it in a very general and generous way. People quickly see through things like, "I understand that you feel that way, and I'll definitely take your comments on board. Moving forward let's see how we can collaborate in a manner in which we can all feel heard and empowered." Or rote-learned manufactured smalltalk. It's not an argument against generally finding things in common with people either, of course, just a recommendation to avoid the scripted stuff and get to the meat of it sooner. I do think that a lot of management advice would suffer from a replication crisis if it had a strong enough base for that to be coherent.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Also have to keep in mind that just because your peers are intelligent, doesn't mean the management above is. They will probably reach out to the flatterer as a point of contact even if they aren't the best one at that specific task to be done.

by jddj 3y ago

saghm 3y ago

At least personally, the people I've found difficult to work with aren't ones who I don't know what they want; it's that what they want conflicts with what I want. Usually, this boils down to "they want to decide how everything is done and not have to justify it to me, and I want to not just blindly follow what they tell me to do". Trying to "work maturely and fairly within that context" is directly at odds with what they want in those cases.

jddj 3y ago
There is a lot of that. I have one who in no exaggerated terms needs every good thing to have been their idea and will reframe what their role was in anything that turns out to have been a waste of time/money. They want, more than anything, approval and recognition - to an embarrassing extent. It's not fun and I'd have it almost any other way given the choice, but we've achieved a lot despite that and observers so far have been astute enough to see things for what they are.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

> No cookie cutter management fluff is going to get you anywhere useful with intelligent people. bollocks. intelligent people are just as susceptible to advertising, charisma, good looks, "presence", flattery, threats, and other manipulation as anyone. The bar may be a little higher, but everyone has intrinsic biases regardless of IQ, and it's not hard to flesh those out through interactions, then pander to them. These are all part and parcel of the management toolkit and if you don't think they are then chances are they're working on you right now. "Advertising works, even when you know how advertising works".

jddj 3y ago
I don't disagree with much of that at all. Intelligent wasn't some nod to the learned class or a differentiator, I meant it in a very general and generous way. People quickly see through things like, "I understand that you feel that way, and I'll definitely take your comments on board. Moving forward let's see how we can collaborate in a manner in which we can all feel heard and empowered." Or rote-learned manufactured smalltalk. It's not an argument against generally finding things in common with people either, of course, just a recommendation to avoid the scripted stuff and get to the meat of it sooner. I do think that a lot of management advice would suffer from a replication crisis if it had a strong enough base for that to be coherent.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
Also have to keep in mind that just because your peers are intelligent, doesn't mean the management above is. They will probably reach out to the flatterer as a point of contact even if they aren't the best one at that specific task to be done.