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Ignosticism is the only approach that works for me when discussing Free Will. "I will not discuss this with you until you tell me what you mean by 'Free Will'"

Ignosticism is the only approach that works for me when discussing Free Will. "I will not discuss this with you until you tell me what you mean by 'Free Will'" Anything else leads to endless semantic quibbling and ducking from one argument to another to defend an ill-defined idea that the person is attached to defending.

303uru 3y ago
Exactly. Tell me what free will is? If it's a soul, god, etc... fine, no need to debate, I don't need to be that atheist. If it's not any of that, then why do you think the brain is the only physical object which doesn't work the same way as every other physical process in the universe?
- NeuNeurosis 3y ago
  While I totally agree with the defining of a subject first, I am curious about some of your implicit assumptions inherent in your statement/question. While everything works on the same rules we definitely have not arrived at the completion of a list of those rules especially when it comes how biologic systems take advantage those rules to build systems. Its inherent in systems that they allow for increased complexity beyond what the base components allow. Its not a stretch to theorize that increased complexity and the opaque nature of physical interactions might allow space for Free Will or independence of consciousness in certain circumstances.
  - 303uru 3y ago
    I definitely lack the words to be super eloquent on this front, but I boil it down to a computer comparison. No matter how complex a computer we make it will take inputs and compute outputs. I now of no evidence of a level of complexity at which this is no longer true. I think the idea of free will is enticing, I'd love to look at a situation in which I prevailed and say "yes, I overcame everything to make that happen." But I think the only supported conclusion is that I made the decision and action I made due to a complex, lifelong history of things that happened internally (biology) and externally to me. Comparatively, I think free will is essentially asking that a computer take inputs and it's programming and shrug that all off to come up with a completely novel output.
    - T0Bi 3y ago
      But that assumes that with the same inputs, the outputs are always the same. As far as I know this hasn't been proven for quantum mechanics. I'm just a layman but in my understanding you can only predict a probability of the result. That's why with exactly the same inputs, the output can actually differ. Whether or not that's free will is another discussion, but the "we are a very complex yet in theory predicable computer" argument doesn't hold.
      - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
        If you're willing to accept inputs that are only almost exactly the same, there's already a class of deterministic systems that can provide you with wildly different outputs. Moreover, in such systems, the output might be impossible to predict based on the input (other than by running the system). Deterministic doesn't necessarily imply predictable. I'm just saying, you don't need to reach for quantum mechanics here, living organisms (and computers) are quite capable of being unpredictable even without it. For the rest I agree with you.
      - 303uru 3y ago
        Nope, there is randomness. Similarly I can run a rand() function. But is that free will?
    - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
      It is true that a computer will take inputs and compute outputs, and that is all it ever can do. However, this statement does not quite end up explaining Space Invaders. There's a couple of steps in between that might have been glossed over slightly. [1] A computer is entirely capable of generating novel (enough) output. Elsewhere I point to the trivial-seeming python function math.random(). Good luck predicting what that will do! In reality, it turns out that math.random() and the theory behind PRNGs is not so trivial at all, and is actually quite interesting to dive in to. [2] [1] This particular argument inspired by https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005268 https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/jo... . It mentions using neuroscience to try to understand space invaders, which I think is funny. :-) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator , or eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map being used as an early PRNG
  - munksbeer 3y ago
    > might allow space for Free Will Space for what? What is free will? Is it just throwing some randomness into decision making?
Kim_Bruning 3y ago
Today I Learned about the world Ignosticism! Thank you, I love it!

303uru 3y ago

Exactly. Tell me what free will is? If it's a soul, god, etc... fine, no need to debate, I don't need to be that atheist. If it's not any of that, then why do you think the brain is the only physical object which doesn't work the same way as every other physical process in the universe?

NeuNeurosis 3y ago
While I totally agree with the defining of a subject first, I am curious about some of your implicit assumptions inherent in your statement/question. While everything works on the same rules we definitely have not arrived at the completion of a list of those rules especially when it comes how biologic systems take advantage those rules to build systems. Its inherent in systems that they allow for increased complexity beyond what the base components allow. Its not a stretch to theorize that increased complexity and the opaque nature of physical interactions might allow space for Free Will or independence of consciousness in certain circumstances.
- 303uru 3y ago
  I definitely lack the words to be super eloquent on this front, but I boil it down to a computer comparison. No matter how complex a computer we make it will take inputs and compute outputs. I now of no evidence of a level of complexity at which this is no longer true. I think the idea of free will is enticing, I'd love to look at a situation in which I prevailed and say "yes, I overcame everything to make that happen." But I think the only supported conclusion is that I made the decision and action I made due to a complex, lifelong history of things that happened internally (biology) and externally to me. Comparatively, I think free will is essentially asking that a computer take inputs and it's programming and shrug that all off to come up with a completely novel output.
  - T0Bi 3y ago
    But that assumes that with the same inputs, the outputs are always the same. As far as I know this hasn't been proven for quantum mechanics. I'm just a layman but in my understanding you can only predict a probability of the result. That's why with exactly the same inputs, the output can actually differ. Whether or not that's free will is another discussion, but the "we are a very complex yet in theory predicable computer" argument doesn't hold.
    - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
      If you're willing to accept inputs that are only almost exactly the same, there's already a class of deterministic systems that can provide you with wildly different outputs. Moreover, in such systems, the output might be impossible to predict based on the input (other than by running the system). Deterministic doesn't necessarily imply predictable. I'm just saying, you don't need to reach for quantum mechanics here, living organisms (and computers) are quite capable of being unpredictable even without it. For the rest I agree with you.
    - 303uru 3y ago
      Nope, there is randomness. Similarly I can run a rand() function. But is that free will?
  - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
    It is true that a computer will take inputs and compute outputs, and that is all it ever can do. However, this statement does not quite end up explaining Space Invaders. There's a couple of steps in between that might have been glossed over slightly. [1] A computer is entirely capable of generating novel (enough) output. Elsewhere I point to the trivial-seeming python function math.random(). Good luck predicting what that will do! In reality, it turns out that math.random() and the theory behind PRNGs is not so trivial at all, and is actually quite interesting to dive in to. [2] [1] This particular argument inspired by https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005268 https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/jo... . It mentions using neuroscience to try to understand space invaders, which I think is funny. :-) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator , or eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map being used as an early PRNG
- munksbeer 3y ago
  > might allow space for Free Will Space for what? What is free will? Is it just throwing some randomness into decision making?

Kim_Bruning 3y ago

Today I Learned about the world Ignosticism! Thank you, I love it!