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Did it lead to the decline of the Ottoman Empire? China had the printing press for centuries before anyone else and on a per capita basis was not substantially

by jjk166 3y ago

Did it lead to the decline of the Ottoman Empire? China had the printing press for centuries before anyone else and on a per capita basis was not substantially better off or more powerful. Europe did overtake the Ottomans after they adopted the printing press, but a lot of other stuff happened as well and it was only centuries after the adoption that Europe began to match the Ottomans. Obviously in western culture that evolved subsequent to the printing press easy publishing has become critical to how we live our modern lives and it's easy to draw a line connecting those dots, but it does not necessarily follow that the printing press either triggers or is a prerequisite for industrialization. Even if the printing press was a major contributor to Europe's rise, that's not quite the same thing as the Ottoman's decline. Europe was eventually in a position to deal a deathblow but the Ottoman Empire had a lot of issues for a long time prior to its end (which coincided with several European empires as well). Perhaps the printing press could have helped some of these issues, but it's not at all clear it would have done more good than harm.

mistrial9 3y ago
> overtake the Ottomans ... began to match the Ottomans this seems like "too broad a brush" for a meaningful discussion
Beijinger 3y ago
What went wrong? During the middle ages the Arabs developed a brilliant civilization, or so we are told. Next, at some time during the fifteenth century, things began going wrong. The Arabs missed the invention of print (only in 1775 did the Ottomans, who at that time ruled over most Arabs, allow the first printing shop to be established. They missed humanism, the Renaissance, and the Reformation. They missed the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment. They missed the French and American Revolutions along with the principles of democracy and human rights; and they also missed the industrial revolution. http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/ http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/
- ls612 3y ago
  The golden age of Muslim civilization had ended over 200 years earlier due to Mongol invasions and their aftermath. After that they stagnated while Europe started to rapidly advance 150 years later.
- keenmaster 3y ago
  The printing press was banned as a cynical ploy by Ottoman rulers to suppress the Arab peoples. They knew this would reduce innovation, which Arabs were adept at - maybe even reduce Arab innovation for centuries - but hey, you can’t make an omelette without cracking some eggs right? Ottomans wrote the whole playbook for Middle Eastern dictators: systematically favor the ethnoreligious groups you like, ensure that any big business opportunities are channeled through them, and then for disfavored ethnoreligious groups, suppress avenues to wealth which can be used against their rulers. Then, with the massive vacuum of intelligence left behind as a result of this policy, let fundamentalists misuse religion in such a way to keep your opponents simple and stupid (whereas during the Islamic Golden Age, scientists were inspired by Islam to make groundbreaking discoveries, and they in turn helped spark the Enlightenment in Europe).
  - cymian 3y ago
    A variation of "divide et impera" divide and rule - a strategy probably as old as the concept of an empire.
- isr 3y ago
  Read up on the Mongol invasions, and particularly their conquest of Baghdad (the capital of the then ruling Abassid Khilafat). They slaughtered scholars en masses, and dumped so many books into the Tigris that it's said that the river turned black (from ink), not red. Baghdad is smaller today than it was then. Just to show how much of an impact was felt.
cwmma 3y ago
The Chinese written language isn't as conductive to use with a printing press as compared to Latin or Arabic scripts which is why it didn't make as much of an impact there.
AniseAbyss 3y ago
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atahanacar 3y ago
It was a part of all the reasons the empire started to collapse. The main reason wasn't that printing press was banned, but the mentality behind the ban. They failed to adapt. They failed to recognize what made previous sultans so successful. Instead of innovating, they decided it would be better to keep the status quo. When they realized the need to modernize, it was already too late. They had already become the sick man of Europe.

by jjk166 3y ago

mistrial9 3y ago

> overtake the Ottomans ... began to match the Ottomans this seems like "too broad a brush" for a meaningful discussion

Beijinger 3y ago

What went wrong? During the middle ages the Arabs developed a brilliant civilization, or so we are told. Next, at some time during the fifteenth century, things began going wrong. The Arabs missed the invention of print (only in 1775 did the Ottomans, who at that time ruled over most Arabs, allow the first printing shop to be established. They missed humanism, the Renaissance, and the Reformation. They missed the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment. They missed the French and American Revolutions along with the principles of democracy and human rights; and they also missed the industrial revolution. http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/ http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/

ls612 3y ago
The golden age of Muslim civilization had ended over 200 years earlier due to Mongol invasions and their aftermath. After that they stagnated while Europe started to rapidly advance 150 years later.
keenmaster 3y ago
The printing press was banned as a cynical ploy by Ottoman rulers to suppress the Arab peoples. They knew this would reduce innovation, which Arabs were adept at - maybe even reduce Arab innovation for centuries - but hey, you can’t make an omelette without cracking some eggs right? Ottomans wrote the whole playbook for Middle Eastern dictators: systematically favor the ethnoreligious groups you like, ensure that any big business opportunities are channeled through them, and then for disfavored ethnoreligious groups, suppress avenues to wealth which can be used against their rulers. Then, with the massive vacuum of intelligence left behind as a result of this policy, let fundamentalists misuse religion in such a way to keep your opponents simple and stupid (whereas during the Islamic Golden Age, scientists were inspired by Islam to make groundbreaking discoveries, and they in turn helped spark the Enlightenment in Europe).
- cymian 3y ago
  A variation of "divide et impera" divide and rule - a strategy probably as old as the concept of an empire.
isr 3y ago
Read up on the Mongol invasions, and particularly their conquest of Baghdad (the capital of the then ruling Abassid Khilafat). They slaughtered scholars en masses, and dumped so many books into the Tigris that it's said that the river turned black (from ink), not red. Baghdad is smaller today than it was then. Just to show how much of an impact was felt.

cwmma 3y ago

The Chinese written language isn't as conductive to use with a printing press as compared to Latin or Arabic scripts which is why it didn't make as much of an impact there.

AniseAbyss 3y ago

[dead]

atahanacar 3y ago

It was a part of all the reasons the empire started to collapse. The main reason wasn't that printing press was banned, but the mentality behind the ban. They failed to adapt. They failed to recognize what made previous sultans so successful. Instead of innovating, they decided it would be better to keep the status quo. When they realized the need to modernize, it was already too late. They had already become the sick man of Europe.