2 ms·

So they got what they wanted. A store is inclusive because everyone can enter it. A conference is inclusive only if you drag every type of person in by force, f

by wruza 3y ago

So they got what they wanted. A store is inclusive because everyone can enter it. A conference is inclusive only if you drag every type of person in by force, faking it if it didn’t work out. “Otherwise it’s not inclusive and I’m not participating”. Isn’t that pure nonsense.

woodruffw 3y ago
I'm having trouble parsing this comment. Who got what they wanted?
- pelagicAustral 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    How do you know their motivation?
  - soco 3y ago
    So we are all missing the point that the organizer LIED around and he's being rightfully punished for that?
    - pelagicAustral 3y ago
      No, I don't think people are, at large, missing the point. I think there is some more reflecting to do about the article in that pretty much points out the lengths people are going to go so they can conform to the CURRENT_THING. Almost like virtue signaling is actually a thing.
      - mcphage 3y ago
        Weird that he was willing go to the lengths of “inventing fake women speakers”, but not willing to go the much shorter lengths of “inviting real women to speak”.
        soco 3y ago
        So basically NOT conforming to the CURRENT_THING at all. Yet still we don't blame them for such blatant lies... maybe because we actually think it's the right way to do things in life - lie and cheat the rules we don't agree with? I know one can even get elected president like this, but it's definitely not what I'd call "role model" behaviour, to put it mildly.
        mcphage 3y ago
        > Yet still we don't blame them for such blatant lies. I mean, I for one blame them for blatant lies. And it sounds like others do too, given the fact the conference has been shut down.
        wruza 3y ago
        Do we know for sure these are shorter? I got an impression that he struggled with it, not that he intentionally created woman avatars to avoid inviting women. Assuming the latter for a conference organizer isn't less weird. If that's true, that is very undercover inclusivity sabotage on the verge of conspiracy. Simple desperation to get people there at all and to avoid going bankrupt in case he fails is much more plausible reason. Edit: I'm not sharing particular opinions itt if that matters. It's just the whole issue and these social requirements feel odd to me. By "got what they wanted" I meant exactly that: you put an artificial barrier that makes little sense and people will work around it under the best sense they can make of it. To pre-clarify on what "makes little sense", I think that the rules of these big speakers should be "X must be inclusive by advertising these criteria: <criteria>" instead of "X must have women". Quoting the linked HN thread up there: > we always struggled to get women from outside of Drupal to submit to that track, despite Drupal itself having a relatively large female population. We actively reached out to women both in the PHP community and local to the event and still sometimes had no submissions from women Seems you were saying "shorter lengths" with too much confidence.
  - Selomoto 3y ago
    You don't know if the conference would have happened otherwise. And woke is not bad. Some form of woke are bad but I don't think having female speakers is a bad thing. It is a sausage party and it's not a good thing
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
veeti 3y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20795709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20795709
camel-cdr 3y ago
> A store is inclusive because everyone can enter it. Just the ability to enter isn't what makes up inclusivity, especially for a conference. It's about being as included, welcome and accommodated for as another group. I remember an anecdote from a recent Kate Gregory (iirc) talk about the early days of C++ conferences, where it turned out the organizers just didn't think about renting woman's toilets, only men's toilets. (Not to mention that this distinction is bullshit anyway, but that's a separate topic)
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  How do you only rent 'mens' toilets? Port-a-potties usually aren't labeled, unless they are just urinals. Did the conference centers lock out the 'women' toilets? Most conference centers that I have been to don't have access doors to the restrooms, it is a u shaped freeflow walk in. This removes the bottleneck and cuts the cost of a door.

by wruza 3y ago

woodruffw 3y ago

I'm having trouble parsing this comment. Who got what they wanted?

pelagicAustral 3y ago
[flagged]
- nielsbot 3y ago
  How do you know their motivation?
- soco 3y ago
  So we are all missing the point that the organizer LIED around and he's being rightfully punished for that?
  - pelagicAustral 3y ago
    No, I don't think people are, at large, missing the point. I think there is some more reflecting to do about the article in that pretty much points out the lengths people are going to go so they can conform to the CURRENT_THING. Almost like virtue signaling is actually a thing.
    - mcphage 3y ago
      Weird that he was willing go to the lengths of “inventing fake women speakers”, but not willing to go the much shorter lengths of “inviting real women to speak”.
      - soco 3y ago
        So basically NOT conforming to the CURRENT_THING at all. Yet still we don't blame them for such blatant lies... maybe because we actually think it's the right way to do things in life - lie and cheat the rules we don't agree with? I know one can even get elected president like this, but it's definitely not what I'd call "role model" behaviour, to put it mildly.
        mcphage 3y ago
        > Yet still we don't blame them for such blatant lies. I mean, I for one blame them for blatant lies. And it sounds like others do too, given the fact the conference has been shut down.
      - wruza 3y ago
        Do we know for sure these are shorter? I got an impression that he struggled with it, not that he intentionally created woman avatars to avoid inviting women. Assuming the latter for a conference organizer isn't less weird. If that's true, that is very undercover inclusivity sabotage on the verge of conspiracy. Simple desperation to get people there at all and to avoid going bankrupt in case he fails is much more plausible reason. Edit: I'm not sharing particular opinions itt if that matters. It's just the whole issue and these social requirements feel odd to me. By "got what they wanted" I meant exactly that: you put an artificial barrier that makes little sense and people will work around it under the best sense they can make of it. To pre-clarify on what "makes little sense", I think that the rules of these big speakers should be "X must be inclusive by advertising these criteria: <criteria>" instead of "X must have women". Quoting the linked HN thread up there: > we always struggled to get women from outside of Drupal to submit to that track, despite Drupal itself having a relatively large female population. We actively reached out to women both in the PHP community and local to the event and still sometimes had no submissions from women Seems you were saying "shorter lengths" with too much confidence.
- Selomoto 3y ago
  You don't know if the conference would have happened otherwise. And woke is not bad. Some form of woke are bad but I don't think having female speakers is a bad thing. It is a sausage party and it's not a good thing

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

veeti 3y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20795709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20795709

camel-cdr 3y ago

> A store is inclusive because everyone can enter it. Just the ability to enter isn't what makes up inclusivity, especially for a conference. It's about being as included, welcome and accommodated for as another group. I remember an anecdote from a recent Kate Gregory (iirc) talk about the early days of C++ conferences, where it turned out the organizers just didn't think about renting woman's toilets, only men's toilets. (Not to mention that this distinction is bullshit anyway, but that's a separate topic)

themaninthedark 3y ago
How do you only rent 'mens' toilets? Port-a-potties usually aren't labeled, unless they are just urinals. Did the conference centers lock out the 'women' toilets? Most conference centers that I have been to don't have access doors to the restrooms, it is a u shaped freeflow walk in. This removes the bottleneck and cuts the cost of a door.