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But the most important factor may yet be electrification. VW doesn't have an edge in electric cars and their product lines (the ID3, 4 etc.) are not really comp

by einr 3y ago

But the most important factor may yet be electrification. VW doesn't have an edge in electric cars and their product lines (the ID3, 4 etc.) are not really competitive. They must be doing something right because the ID.4 sells like hotcakes in Scandinavia, Germany and other European countries. It was the #1 EV in 2022 in Sweden, and #2 in Germany behind the Tesla Model Y. (ID.3 was #3)

starbugs 3y ago
I guess I should have phrased it differently. Going forward, they don't seem competitive in comparison to Tesla and the upcoming Chinese competition. Selling a lot of cars doesn't mean it's a profitable business. I am quite sure the German government will come up with new tariffs, subsidies and regulations to make it look as if they can continue to dominate the local market though, hurting consumers and the German industry even more along the way.
- einr 3y ago
  I guess I should have phrased it differently. Going forward, they don't seem competitive in comparison to Tesla and the upcoming Chinese competition. Phrased that way I would generally agree with you. I think not only European, Japanese and Korean brands but Tesla too is in for a bit of a rude awakening once all the Chinese stuff really hits Europe.
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    Then Chinese stuff will get hit by tariffs, as it was the case with Chinese steel.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      Germany is not the US. We are not energy independent. In fact, we are not independent of anything other then water maybe. Germany is reliant on exports. Tariffs are not helpful there. If you can’t manufacture a product at competitive prices on the world market, Germany has no real business in manufacturing anything anymore unless in a war economy. As a leading economy in the EU you might have the means to stretch that out for some time, but ultimately this makes matters worse in the end. Germany is currently trying to subsidize what remains of the industry at the cost of consumers. This is already causing substantial backlash from consumers, voters and even the federal courts. Good luck with all of that.
- fxtentacle 3y ago
  Politics was, luckily for VW, very successful at massively delaying Vinfast's market entry with regulations. Otherwise, that electrical 5-seat SUV for only €17600 would have been a massive problem for German car companies. It's like 70% cheaper than an ID.4 and people will probably accept a lot of small hiccups for that amount of money saved.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    The state and VW are quite intertwined, so I guess our politicians will not stop before they have driven this whole thing into the ground completely. Ultimately, I believe this will be a good thing for Germany in the long run. But for quite some while, this will cause substantial pain to a lot of German citizens.
- hilux 3y ago
  Compared to internal-combustion cars, electric cars are much more of a commodity, specifically, the hardware is a commodity. In the the long run, this will hurt manufacturers in high-cost countries.
mgoetzke 3y ago
I would hope that the largest car company in Europe still outsells others in their home countries. They are pushing everything they have into Europe where they still have the largest lead in Mindspace, Dealerships, Relations with Leasing partners etc. They also offer some cars at very extreme monthly payments and still they reduce production. Tesla will make a lower cost model soon and a Model 3 will likely also come from Brandenburg soon, so right now VW competition is not even fully there yet. Question is whether they can sustain that.
- einr 3y ago
  I would hope that the largest car company in Europe still outsells others in their home countries. They are pushing everything they have into Europe where they still have the largest lead in Mindspace, Dealerships, Relations with Leasing partners etc. This is not really surprising or bad strategy. VW has zero chance in China and America is a very underdeveloped market so focusing on Europe makes all the sense in the world. The question was whether they have competitive products right now and I find it really strange to say they don't when they have the #4 and #5 best selling EVs in all of Europe (not just Germany): https://www.statista.com/statistics/972845/electric-vehicles-leading-models-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/972845/electric-vehicles... There are more very successful VAG products in there too, like the Audi eTron and the Skoda Enyaq. They might be unable to sustain this -- I don't know -- but right now, as a Swedish dude in Sweden, VW is very much looking like one of the winners judging by what cars I see on the road. Also: any statement to the effect of "Tesla will release a new product soon" I will take with a mountain of salt, considering their track record.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    > The question was whether they have competitive products right now and I find it really strange to say they don't when they have the #4 and #5 best selling EVs in all of Europe (not just Germany) You can have high sales numbers and still not be competitive if you don't turn those sales into viable profits. I think it's also important to distinguish between the VW brand and company. The article explicitly says: > “With many of our pre-existing structures, processes and high costs, we are no longer competitive as the Volkswagen brand,” Thomas Schaefer told staff during a meeting at the German carmaker’s headquarters in Wolfsburg, Germany, according to a post on the company’s intranet site seen by Reuters.’ So there can be no doubt that the VW brand is in trouble with regards to competitiveness. The company may still be doing "fine" due to high end brands still performing well.

by einr 3y ago

starbugs 3y ago

I guess I should have phrased it differently. Going forward, they don't seem competitive in comparison to Tesla and the upcoming Chinese competition. Selling a lot of cars doesn't mean it's a profitable business. I am quite sure the German government will come up with new tariffs, subsidies and regulations to make it look as if they can continue to dominate the local market though, hurting consumers and the German industry even more along the way.

einr 3y ago
I guess I should have phrased it differently. Going forward, they don't seem competitive in comparison to Tesla and the upcoming Chinese competition. Phrased that way I would generally agree with you. I think not only European, Japanese and Korean brands but Tesla too is in for a bit of a rude awakening once all the Chinese stuff really hits Europe.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  Then Chinese stuff will get hit by tariffs, as it was the case with Chinese steel.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    Germany is not the US. We are not energy independent. In fact, we are not independent of anything other then water maybe. Germany is reliant on exports. Tariffs are not helpful there. If you can’t manufacture a product at competitive prices on the world market, Germany has no real business in manufacturing anything anymore unless in a war economy. As a leading economy in the EU you might have the means to stretch that out for some time, but ultimately this makes matters worse in the end. Germany is currently trying to subsidize what remains of the industry at the cost of consumers. This is already causing substantial backlash from consumers, voters and even the federal courts. Good luck with all of that.
fxtentacle 3y ago
Politics was, luckily for VW, very successful at massively delaying Vinfast's market entry with regulations. Otherwise, that electrical 5-seat SUV for only €17600 would have been a massive problem for German car companies. It's like 70% cheaper than an ID.4 and people will probably accept a lot of small hiccups for that amount of money saved.
- starbugs 3y ago
  The state and VW are quite intertwined, so I guess our politicians will not stop before they have driven this whole thing into the ground completely. Ultimately, I believe this will be a good thing for Germany in the long run. But for quite some while, this will cause substantial pain to a lot of German citizens.
hilux 3y ago
Compared to internal-combustion cars, electric cars are much more of a commodity, specifically, the hardware is a commodity. In the the long run, this will hurt manufacturers in high-cost countries.

mgoetzke 3y ago

I would hope that the largest car company in Europe still outsells others in their home countries. They are pushing everything they have into Europe where they still have the largest lead in Mindspace, Dealerships, Relations with Leasing partners etc. They also offer some cars at very extreme monthly payments and still they reduce production. Tesla will make a lower cost model soon and a Model 3 will likely also come from Brandenburg soon, so right now VW competition is not even fully there yet. Question is whether they can sustain that.

einr 3y ago
I would hope that the largest car company in Europe still outsells others in their home countries. They are pushing everything they have into Europe where they still have the largest lead in Mindspace, Dealerships, Relations with Leasing partners etc. This is not really surprising or bad strategy. VW has zero chance in China and America is a very underdeveloped market so focusing on Europe makes all the sense in the world. The question was whether they have competitive products right now and I find it really strange to say they don't when they have the #4 and #5 best selling EVs in all of Europe (not just Germany): https://www.statista.com/statistics/972845/electric-vehicles-leading-models-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/972845/electric-vehicles... There are more very successful VAG products in there too, like the Audi eTron and the Skoda Enyaq. They might be unable to sustain this -- I don't know -- but right now, as a Swedish dude in Sweden, VW is very much looking like one of the winners judging by what cars I see on the road. Also: any statement to the effect of "Tesla will release a new product soon" I will take with a mountain of salt, considering their track record.
- starbugs 3y ago
  > The question was whether they have competitive products right now and I find it really strange to say they don't when they have the #4 and #5 best selling EVs in all of Europe (not just Germany) You can have high sales numbers and still not be competitive if you don't turn those sales into viable profits. I think it's also important to distinguish between the VW brand and company. The article explicitly says: > “With many of our pre-existing structures, processes and high costs, we are no longer competitive as the Volkswagen brand,” Thomas Schaefer told staff during a meeting at the German carmaker’s headquarters in Wolfsburg, Germany, according to a post on the company’s intranet site seen by Reuters.’ So there can be no doubt that the VW brand is in trouble with regards to competitiveness. The company may still be doing "fine" due to high end brands still performing well.