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I think the artists get to say whatever they want about this bullshit considering it's entirely dependent on their work to even function. I don't think the AI c

by __loam 3y ago

I think the artists get to say whatever they want about this bullshit considering it's entirely dependent on their work to even function. I don't think the AI community gets to call the people who make the models possible at all snobs or anything else. The AI people didn't make shit. They should have some respect for the people that do.

senseiV 3y ago
The so called "AI People" built the entire architecture, something people didn't think was possible at the scale and quality a year ago, and the matter of "artists should get whatever they want" because it trained on their works isn't the point. Diffusion Models don't rip parts of pictures together, they happen to be trained to make art out of noise, finding patterns in art. same things happening with LLM's in court with the LLama model and book authors claiming it only makes books. I still remember that piece of art that was submitted to an art contest and won, only to be announced an SD prompt later
- __loam 3y ago
  These models can't exist without the training sets. Their value is entirely derived from existing data. The ml architecture does not matter at all. Sure, throw enough compute and data at a problem, do a little parallelization, and you can extract plenty of patterns. Does that mean the ml engineers understand art? Or are they just using glorified brute force to alienate people who actually make things from their labor? No, I have very little respect for the AI people. Once you get over the novelty, their creations inspire little else beside disgust. They seem to take pride in how little they understand about the models they create.
  - visarga 3y ago
    If these creations inspire such violent disgust, then it's likely that you perceive them as authentic art. If AI images were devoid of meaning or value, they wouldn't have sparked such passion. You cannot claim ownership over culture, nor can AI. Culture is a collaborative process, and no one can barricade themselves from the input of others. Artists using AI are simply exercising their right to contribute to the collective creative pool. Art flourishes in an open environment where it can stimulate other artistic endeavors. The only art off-limits to AI is the art that remains unpublished.
    - __loam 3y ago
      This is, imo, an extremely naive take. You claim culture is a collaborative process, yet AI only takes from the communities that produce art. It gives nothing back. You claim AI produces culture, but all it does is atomize our society, promising personal yet meaningless experiences for everyone. There's no shared culture if everyone is just consuming individualized streams of content. It's simultaneously homogenizing too, producing uninteresting torrents of homogenous images from the same model. This also harms culture, stamping out uniqueness under the weight of thousands of meaningless images flooding online art spaces. You claim the only art that's off limits to AI is that which remains unpublished, yet you continue to use the labor of others without permission, discouraging people from publishing their work in the absence of any protection for that work. You claim AI will make art more open, yet most of these models are built and operated by massive corporations with closed source code. They steal from the public and cry out fair use while trying to build walled gardens they can monopolize. So I'm sorry but there's an argument to every point you're making. I trust the artists I speak to far more than the proponents of this technology. At least they're striving for something genuinely instead of making disengenuous claims about "democratization".
      - visarga 3y ago
        I don't try to swim against the current. But you're welcome to do it. What do you mean AI doesn't give back? It serves everyone and gives back everything it can create. Artists are the number one users here, and they will unlock the AI skills better than regular people playing around. What individualized streams? you mean like imagination, where everyone of us has their own "individualized stream"? AI art is augmented imagination. No obstacle in sharing, in fact it's easier now. You don't need to be an artist to create depictions of your imaginations, and sharing a generated JPG is much easier than drawing it by hand. > yet you continue to use the labor of others without permission That's how culture works. The artist who never took inspiration from the cultural environment should throw the first stone. Pablo Picasso is widely quoted as having said that “good artists borrow, great artists steal.”
        kmeisthax 3y ago
  - incrudible 3y ago
    Do humans understand art? Does it matter? How do humans learn to create art? By looking at other peoples art, for the most part. Those other artists are not compensated for this either, nor do they need to be credited. If you exactly copy another persons art style, that may be frowned upon by some, but otherwise it is of no consequence, unless you claim the work is actually made by that artist. If you believe that humans should be afforded a privilege that machines (or rather their operators) should not be afforded, make your case on why.
    - __loam 3y ago
      You're the millionth person to make the argument that we should treat AI learning the same as human learning. It's still a bad argument, but I'm getting very tired of explaining why treating a human the same as a computer program sucks ass.
      - incrudible 3y ago
        You're the millionth person to make the argument that AI art sucks. That didn't stop me from typing up a reply for you. Why don't you link one of your previous replies?

by __loam 3y ago

senseiV 3y ago

The so called "AI People" built the entire architecture, something people didn't think was possible at the scale and quality a year ago, and the matter of "artists should get whatever they want" because it trained on their works isn't the point. Diffusion Models don't rip parts of pictures together, they happen to be trained to make art out of noise, finding patterns in art. same things happening with LLM's in court with the LLama model and book authors claiming it only makes books. I still remember that piece of art that was submitted to an art contest and won, only to be announced an SD prompt later

__loam 3y ago
These models can't exist without the training sets. Their value is entirely derived from existing data. The ml architecture does not matter at all. Sure, throw enough compute and data at a problem, do a little parallelization, and you can extract plenty of patterns. Does that mean the ml engineers understand art? Or are they just using glorified brute force to alienate people who actually make things from their labor? No, I have very little respect for the AI people. Once you get over the novelty, their creations inspire little else beside disgust. They seem to take pride in how little they understand about the models they create.
- visarga 3y ago
  If these creations inspire such violent disgust, then it's likely that you perceive them as authentic art. If AI images were devoid of meaning or value, they wouldn't have sparked such passion. You cannot claim ownership over culture, nor can AI. Culture is a collaborative process, and no one can barricade themselves from the input of others. Artists using AI are simply exercising their right to contribute to the collective creative pool. Art flourishes in an open environment where it can stimulate other artistic endeavors. The only art off-limits to AI is the art that remains unpublished.
  - __loam 3y ago
    This is, imo, an extremely naive take. You claim culture is a collaborative process, yet AI only takes from the communities that produce art. It gives nothing back. You claim AI produces culture, but all it does is atomize our society, promising personal yet meaningless experiences for everyone. There's no shared culture if everyone is just consuming individualized streams of content. It's simultaneously homogenizing too, producing uninteresting torrents of homogenous images from the same model. This also harms culture, stamping out uniqueness under the weight of thousands of meaningless images flooding online art spaces. You claim the only art that's off limits to AI is that which remains unpublished, yet you continue to use the labor of others without permission, discouraging people from publishing their work in the absence of any protection for that work. You claim AI will make art more open, yet most of these models are built and operated by massive corporations with closed source code. They steal from the public and cry out fair use while trying to build walled gardens they can monopolize. So I'm sorry but there's an argument to every point you're making. I trust the artists I speak to far more than the proponents of this technology. At least they're striving for something genuinely instead of making disengenuous claims about "democratization".
    - visarga 3y ago
      I don't try to swim against the current. But you're welcome to do it. What do you mean AI doesn't give back? It serves everyone and gives back everything it can create. Artists are the number one users here, and they will unlock the AI skills better than regular people playing around. What individualized streams? you mean like imagination, where everyone of us has their own "individualized stream"? AI art is augmented imagination. No obstacle in sharing, in fact it's easier now. You don't need to be an artist to create depictions of your imaginations, and sharing a generated JPG is much easier than drawing it by hand. > yet you continue to use the labor of others without permission That's how culture works. The artist who never took inspiration from the cultural environment should throw the first stone. Pablo Picasso is widely quoted as having said that “good artists borrow, great artists steal.”
      - kmeisthax 3y ago
- incrudible 3y ago
  Do humans understand art? Does it matter? How do humans learn to create art? By looking at other peoples art, for the most part. Those other artists are not compensated for this either, nor do they need to be credited. If you exactly copy another persons art style, that may be frowned upon by some, but otherwise it is of no consequence, unless you claim the work is actually made by that artist. If you believe that humans should be afforded a privilege that machines (or rather their operators) should not be afforded, make your case on why.
  - __loam 3y ago
    You're the millionth person to make the argument that we should treat AI learning the same as human learning. It's still a bad argument, but I'm getting very tired of explaining why treating a human the same as a computer program sucks ass.
    - incrudible 3y ago
      You're the millionth person to make the argument that AI art sucks. That didn't stop me from typing up a reply for you. Why don't you link one of your previous replies?