4 ms·

This is assuming people's viewpoints don't evolve as they get older. “Celui qui n’est pas républicain à vingt ans fait douter de la générosité de son âme; mais

by qqtt 3y ago

This is assuming people's viewpoints don't evolve as they get older. “Celui qui n’est pas républicain à vingt ans fait douter de la générosité de son âme; mais celui qui, après trente ans, persévère, fait douter de la rectitude de son esprit.” A quick search shows the quote originating in the 19th century.

LAC-Tech 3y ago
I may offer myself as an example. As a young man I was generally pro-Israeli, I can remember a teacher in high school telling us about how great Israel was the morning after 9/11, how they fought all those wars against Arabs who hated them (for no reason at all), Moshe Dayan's cool eyepatch, etc etc. I'm 36 now, and things are different: - I know who Netanyahu is, and what he's said. - I know who AIPAC are, and what they've said. - I know who the ADL are, and what they've said. - I know how the British Mandate of Palestine ended Younger generations will be finding a lot more of what I learned a lot more quickly.
- selestify 3y ago
  As a younger person than you, I moved from being vaguely pro-Palestinian in the past to being staunchly pro-Israel now that I have learned more about: - how Israel has repeatedly needed to fend off simultaneous attacks on its existence - what the rules of war actually are, and what counts as a war crime or not, and how restrained Israel has been in this regards - how Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are highly radicalized and even celebrated the 9/11 attacks on the very day of I’m not claiming to be representative of people my age. I’m simply providing a counter example to you, to show that “learning the facts a lot more quickly” can lead one to different conclusions. For me, I will unapologetically stand on what I perceive to be the side of civilization, against the forces of barbarism that we saw unleashed on 10/7. Others may perceive differently, or have different values. That’s fine, but it doesn’t make one perspective the obvious and objectively correct one.
- anon291 3y ago
  [flagged]
- xdennis 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - LAC-Tech 3y ago
    I don't "support Arabs" (or Israelis for that matter) - these aren't sports teams, they're groups of human beings. Nor do I get my Israel scepticism from "drive-by social media" posts. Much of it is from simply reading what prominent Israeli politicians and their allies in western countries have said from their own mouths, on their own websites and platforms, for all to see. I'm not obligated - morally or otherwise - to support anyone in an ethnic struggle in the middle east.
  - gorbachev 3y ago
    The post you were replying to wasn't talking about moving from pro-Jewish to pro-Arab. You can be pro-Jewish, but staunchly against what the Israeli Government is doing to Palestinian people. In fact, there are a lot of Israeli Jews who share this view as well.
  - justin66 3y ago
    > If you study history from drive-by social media posts I'm not surprised This is the douchiest way imaginable to begin a response to someone.
- underdeserver 3y ago
  Look at your list of arguments. AIPAC, the ADL and 1948 Britain (?) are not Israeli. We agree with some of what they do. The Israeli public is VERY conflicted about Netanyahu. It's like saying that since Trump got elected, America is a racist misogynistic country. I am Israeli. I want to live without fear of being gunned down in my house or at a rave at 6 AM like the 1200 people who died on October 7th. I want to live without fear of a rocket fired from Gaza exploding on my house. Am I allowed that right? If I am, pray tell, how do we get from October 7th to there?
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    You deserve all that. I’m not sure creating a new generation of angry orphans in Gaza will get you there.
    - underdeserver 3y ago
      But that's the problem. What will? It feels like everyone in the world is criticizing what the IDF does. Nobody seems to have an alternative. Hamas keeps repeating that they want no Jews between the river and the sea and they plan to commit October 7th-like atrocities again and again. What is the IDF and the Israeli government supposed to do?
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > But that's the problem. What will? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism I don't know what the solution is. People much smarter than me have tried to come up with one. What I can definitively say is large-scale civilian casualties in Gaza is unlikely to prevent another October 7th someday, and may well help cause another one. Some problems are intractable. Christians in the area have been arguing since 1757 about who's allowed to move a ladder, without resolution, and no one even died over it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_Quo_(Jerusalem_and_Bethlehem) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_Quo_(Jerusalem_and_Beth...
        3y ago
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Palestinians are not the only group with atrocities committed against them here. This situation is so sticky because both sides have legitimate grievances that allow them to make compelling moral arguments for their actions.
mcpackieh 3y ago
If you break it down by religion and ethnicity, support for Israel in America is the highest among white evangelicals. Young white people are leaving religion in increasing numbers and aren't going back to it. Your average white evangelical church crowd today looks like a nursing home field trip (and this demographic trend is very much on their minds. They're trying everything they can think of to reverse the trend but none of it works.) America's support for Israel will never recover to the heights it once enjoyed.

by qqtt 3y ago

LAC-Tech 3y ago

I may offer myself as an example. As a young man I was generally pro-Israeli, I can remember a teacher in high school telling us about how great Israel was the morning after 9/11, how they fought all those wars against Arabs who hated them (for no reason at all), Moshe Dayan's cool eyepatch, etc etc. I'm 36 now, and things are different: - I know who Netanyahu is, and what he's said. - I know who AIPAC are, and what they've said. - I know who the ADL are, and what they've said. - I know how the British Mandate of Palestine ended Younger generations will be finding a lot more of what I learned a lot more quickly.

selestify 3y ago
As a younger person than you, I moved from being vaguely pro-Palestinian in the past to being staunchly pro-Israel now that I have learned more about: - how Israel has repeatedly needed to fend off simultaneous attacks on its existence - what the rules of war actually are, and what counts as a war crime or not, and how restrained Israel has been in this regards - how Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are highly radicalized and even celebrated the 9/11 attacks on the very day of I’m not claiming to be representative of people my age. I’m simply providing a counter example to you, to show that “learning the facts a lot more quickly” can lead one to different conclusions. For me, I will unapologetically stand on what I perceive to be the side of civilization, against the forces of barbarism that we saw unleashed on 10/7. Others may perceive differently, or have different values. That’s fine, but it doesn’t make one perspective the obvious and objectively correct one.
anon291 3y ago
[flagged]
xdennis 3y ago
[flagged]
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  I don't "support Arabs" (or Israelis for that matter) - these aren't sports teams, they're groups of human beings. Nor do I get my Israel scepticism from "drive-by social media" posts. Much of it is from simply reading what prominent Israeli politicians and their allies in western countries have said from their own mouths, on their own websites and platforms, for all to see. I'm not obligated - morally or otherwise - to support anyone in an ethnic struggle in the middle east.
- gorbachev 3y ago
  The post you were replying to wasn't talking about moving from pro-Jewish to pro-Arab. You can be pro-Jewish, but staunchly against what the Israeli Government is doing to Palestinian people. In fact, there are a lot of Israeli Jews who share this view as well.
- justin66 3y ago
  > If you study history from drive-by social media posts I'm not surprised This is the douchiest way imaginable to begin a response to someone.
underdeserver 3y ago
Look at your list of arguments. AIPAC, the ADL and 1948 Britain (?) are not Israeli. We agree with some of what they do. The Israeli public is VERY conflicted about Netanyahu. It's like saying that since Trump got elected, America is a racist misogynistic country. I am Israeli. I want to live without fear of being gunned down in my house or at a rave at 6 AM like the 1200 people who died on October 7th. I want to live without fear of a rocket fired from Gaza exploding on my house. Am I allowed that right? If I am, pray tell, how do we get from October 7th to there?
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  You deserve all that. I’m not sure creating a new generation of angry orphans in Gaza will get you there.
  - underdeserver 3y ago
    But that's the problem. What will? It feels like everyone in the world is criticizing what the IDF does. Nobody seems to have an alternative. Hamas keeps repeating that they want no Jews between the river and the sea and they plan to commit October 7th-like atrocities again and again. What is the IDF and the Israeli government supposed to do?
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      > But that's the problem. What will? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism I don't know what the solution is. People much smarter than me have tried to come up with one. What I can definitively say is large-scale civilian casualties in Gaza is unlikely to prevent another October 7th someday, and may well help cause another one. Some problems are intractable. Christians in the area have been arguing since 1757 about who's allowed to move a ladder, without resolution, and no one even died over it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_Quo_(Jerusalem_and_Bethlehem) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_Quo_(Jerusalem_and_Beth...
      - 3y ago
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Palestinians are not the only group with atrocities committed against them here. This situation is so sticky because both sides have legitimate grievances that allow them to make compelling moral arguments for their actions.

mcpackieh 3y ago

If you break it down by religion and ethnicity, support for Israel in America is the highest among white evangelicals. Young white people are leaving religion in increasing numbers and aren't going back to it. Your average white evangelical church crowd today looks like a nursing home field trip (and this demographic trend is very much on their minds. They're trying everything they can think of to reverse the trend but none of it works.) America's support for Israel will never recover to the heights it once enjoyed.