8 ms·

I think the more defensible statement would be that in the long run, the engineer would end up at $15m/hr. Even that is not a guarantee, since burger flippers a

I think the more defensible statement would be that in the long run, the engineer would end up at $15m/hr. Even that is not a guarantee, since burger flippers and engineers are not interchangeable. This analysis is missing huge path dependence and varying time lags (i.e. the Cantillon effect). If the minimum wage doubles over night, sure engineer salaries will rise, but with a large lag, since wages tend to be sticky. So the ratio would fall from 15:1 to 7.5:1 overnight, and then slowly recover (over the course of years, likely). And that's assuming that the previous [lower] wage was not artificially suppressed via monopoly / monopsony power or something (which is definitely possible within a single industry)

fishtacos 3y ago
In the meantime, people still need a roof over their head, need a car to get to places (at least in large swaths of concrete jungles, like in TX, as the RTFA explained), which means jack to those who aren't in that position. In other words, you are explaining away huge wage inequality via elitism.
FredPret 3y ago
You're right. What I'm trying to get at though is that minimum wages won't help poor people - it only helps them feel supported. The only real help is to improve their power in the market.
- paulmd 3y ago
  In the long run we are all dead, and if the period until wages catches up is sufficiently long, you can just do it again in 10-20 years. Or peg it to inflation. “Wages will catch up eventually” isn’t a good argument that it doesn’t help people in the meantime.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Individuals die but humanity is hopefully forever. Poor people as a category need real solutions, not a further kicking of cans down the road. The best things that have happened to poor people throughout history have been things that increased their power in the market, and the general improvements brought on by technology.
    - fishtacos 3y ago
      No one's kicking the can down the road. We're literally discussing it in this forum. There is too much abstention noticed in this discussion by those better off. It sadly a reality that those making 2.13/h have to deal with, whether from s** pay by employers, by s** tippers, or those a**holes who defend the latter.
      - FredPret 3y ago
        Raising the minimum wage is kicking the can down the road because it does nothing to address the root cause of low pay (low market power) in the long term, but instead delivers the sugar rush of immediate cash. It looks like something is being done. But the cost is twofold: 1) higher inflation (more money, same economic output), and 2) lower political momentum to help the poor, because "didn't we just raise the minimum wage?" I desperately want every last poor person on the planet to have access to the virtuous cycle of wealth creation and increasing resources. But the only way to help the poor is to engineer a situation where their market power rises. This takes many forms - encouraging more entrepreneurship (entrepreneurs hire people), better capitalization for companies (more money for hiring), steady & reliable market regulations (hiring is less risky), finding ways to increase output per worker (worker is more valuable), and many other hard things. More market power for poor people means when there's a shit employer, you go to the next one, or when you need a raise, you can demand one, and so on. Supply and demand always wins. Everything else is a distraction. Minimum wage is the rent control of the labor market.

fishtacos 3y ago

In the meantime, people still need a roof over their head, need a car to get to places (at least in large swaths of concrete jungles, like in TX, as the RTFA explained), which means jack to those who aren't in that position. In other words, you are explaining away huge wage inequality via elitism.

FredPret 3y ago

You're right. What I'm trying to get at though is that minimum wages won't help poor people - it only helps them feel supported. The only real help is to improve their power in the market.

paulmd 3y ago
In the long run we are all dead, and if the period until wages catches up is sufficiently long, you can just do it again in 10-20 years. Or peg it to inflation. “Wages will catch up eventually” isn’t a good argument that it doesn’t help people in the meantime.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Individuals die but humanity is hopefully forever. Poor people as a category need real solutions, not a further kicking of cans down the road. The best things that have happened to poor people throughout history have been things that increased their power in the market, and the general improvements brought on by technology.
  - fishtacos 3y ago
    No one's kicking the can down the road. We're literally discussing it in this forum. There is too much abstention noticed in this discussion by those better off. It sadly a reality that those making 2.13/h have to deal with, whether from s** pay by employers, by s** tippers, or those a**holes who defend the latter.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      Raising the minimum wage is kicking the can down the road because it does nothing to address the root cause of low pay (low market power) in the long term, but instead delivers the sugar rush of immediate cash. It looks like something is being done. But the cost is twofold: 1) higher inflation (more money, same economic output), and 2) lower political momentum to help the poor, because "didn't we just raise the minimum wage?" I desperately want every last poor person on the planet to have access to the virtuous cycle of wealth creation and increasing resources. But the only way to help the poor is to engineer a situation where their market power rises. This takes many forms - encouraging more entrepreneurship (entrepreneurs hire people), better capitalization for companies (more money for hiring), steady & reliable market regulations (hiring is less risky), finding ways to increase output per worker (worker is more valuable), and many other hard things. More market power for poor people means when there's a shit employer, you go to the next one, or when you need a raise, you can demand one, and so on. Supply and demand always wins. Everything else is a distraction. Minimum wage is the rent control of the labor market.