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The Israelis have also killed more kids in Gaza than the U.S. did in Iraq from 2008 to 2022 (according to UNICEF). https://www.unicef.org/iraq/press-releases/m

The Israelis have also killed more kids in Gaza than the U.S. did in Iraq from 2008 to 2022 (according to UNICEF). https://www.unicef.org/iraq/press-releases/more-9000-children-have-been-killed-or-maimed-%E2%80%AFiraq-2008 https://www.unicef.org/iraq/press-releases/more-9000-childre...

ars 3y ago
That's not even true. 5,500 children (according to Hamas) is less than 9,000 in Iraq (according to UNICEF). And around 33% of that total is from failed rockets in Gaza (based on figures collected in previous wars).
- whatshisface 3y ago
  Sadly the troops are only in the early stages of controlling the area and that number is going to rise a lot if the war is brought to a military completion the way politicians sound like they intend to.
  - ars 3y ago
    If you check the figures most of the deaths were early in the war before people actually believed the IDF that they should move South. Once they did that civilian deaths dropped dramatically. So I don't think it's in the early stages, although this ceasefire is going to restart some elements, which is unfortunate. Hamas needs to surrender - everything they do makes life worse for Palestinians.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      I don't think Hamas is structured in a way that is able surrender, especially now that its "political" wing has totally lost whatever diplomatic or local credibility it had. It only took one month for the coalition to destroy Saddam's regime but it took eight years in all to overcome the random violence and isolated terrorist resistance. Some really bad things happened during the latter part and that's what did the most damage to America.
tptacek 3y ago
I'm really not interested in lining up and correcting the scorecards, so much as I am in the broader point that what people suppose to be simple, clarifying jolts of information --- body counts, horrible photos, whatever --- don't so much clarify as nudge people towards a preferred narrative. That doesn't make them wrong. There is truth and there is falsity and for every important, complicated truth, there are people who "prefer" the narrative that conveys it. But it's not the body count that establishes the truth, it's the underlying work that went into revealing it. The truth of the situation you're intent on nudging us about is intensely complicated.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  I am sorry but stating the truth is beyond criticism. If someone is wrong you can state a different fact that illuminates their facts, or wait until they lie, which they must do if they are sticking with the wrong ideas. You can't criticize someone for saying something that's true, and people only do so when they are losing the argument. If you're so beaten back that you're resorting to that, I will help you: Hamas killed more Israeli children than Saddam killed American children.
  - ars 3y ago
    Except he was NOT stating the truth, not even remotely close to the truth, and I replied to his post.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      I think your post is a good next post for the conversation, I am only complaining about vague methods of shifting the discussion away from facts and towards suspicions.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    In addition to the problem that the parent commenter seems to be comprehensively wrong, just as a matter of fact, they're also obviously not just stating simple facts to contribute to the body of knowledge we draw from to make our own conclusions; there is a clear subtext to the "facts" they're providing (again, scare-quoting because that's not what they are --- though, give it another month, and check again). But, more generally, you're just not responding to anything I actually wrote.

ars 3y ago

That's not even true. 5,500 children (according to Hamas) is less than 9,000 in Iraq (according to UNICEF). And around 33% of that total is from failed rockets in Gaza (based on figures collected in previous wars).

whatshisface 3y ago
Sadly the troops are only in the early stages of controlling the area and that number is going to rise a lot if the war is brought to a military completion the way politicians sound like they intend to.
- ars 3y ago
  If you check the figures most of the deaths were early in the war before people actually believed the IDF that they should move South. Once they did that civilian deaths dropped dramatically. So I don't think it's in the early stages, although this ceasefire is going to restart some elements, which is unfortunate. Hamas needs to surrender - everything they do makes life worse for Palestinians.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    I don't think Hamas is structured in a way that is able surrender, especially now that its "political" wing has totally lost whatever diplomatic or local credibility it had. It only took one month for the coalition to destroy Saddam's regime but it took eight years in all to overcome the random violence and isolated terrorist resistance. Some really bad things happened during the latter part and that's what did the most damage to America.

tptacek 3y ago

I'm really not interested in lining up and correcting the scorecards, so much as I am in the broader point that what people suppose to be simple, clarifying jolts of information --- body counts, horrible photos, whatever --- don't so much clarify as nudge people towards a preferred narrative. That doesn't make them wrong. There is truth and there is falsity and for every important, complicated truth, there are people who "prefer" the narrative that conveys it. But it's not the body count that establishes the truth, it's the underlying work that went into revealing it. The truth of the situation you're intent on nudging us about is intensely complicated.

whatshisface 3y ago
I am sorry but stating the truth is beyond criticism. If someone is wrong you can state a different fact that illuminates their facts, or wait until they lie, which they must do if they are sticking with the wrong ideas. You can't criticize someone for saying something that's true, and people only do so when they are losing the argument. If you're so beaten back that you're resorting to that, I will help you: Hamas killed more Israeli children than Saddam killed American children.
- ars 3y ago
  Except he was NOT stating the truth, not even remotely close to the truth, and I replied to his post.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    I think your post is a good next post for the conversation, I am only complaining about vague methods of shifting the discussion away from facts and towards suspicions.
- tptacek 3y ago
  In addition to the problem that the parent commenter seems to be comprehensively wrong, just as a matter of fact, they're also obviously not just stating simple facts to contribute to the body of knowledge we draw from to make our own conclusions; there is a clear subtext to the "facts" they're providing (again, scare-quoting because that's not what they are --- though, give it another month, and check again). But, more generally, you're just not responding to anything I actually wrote.