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True enough but the poison is in the dose. Too much and you're left with Nihilism. The trouble revolves around how much judgement is required on any given sub

True enough but the poison is in the dose. Too much and you're left with Nihilism. The trouble revolves around how much judgement is required on any given subject. On the right subject people can come perilously close to laying out facts devoid of interpretation; on the wrong subject either no one can or no one believes anyone can - which is pretty much the same thing.

injeolmi_love 3y ago
And what exactly is wrong with a nihilism? If we don’t really know what’s going on, maybe we should accept that truth and move on with living better lives less swayed by political propaganda. Given how many relationships have been ruined because both sides were certain of their political facts, a nihilism seems simply better.
- akprasad 3y ago
  Broadly, nihilism rejects purpose and meaning. I don't see how one can justify we "move on with living better lives" within such a worldview (i.e. why act that way when nothing matters?).
  - tptacek 3y ago
    What the last two comments are really saying is that "nihilism" isn't the right word for the state you enter when you give up on developing an accurate picture of the world from luridly presented tragedies in news stories.
    - matt_j 3y ago
      The right word would be "apathy".
      - tptacek 3y ago
        No, that's not at all right.
  - injeolmi_love 3y ago
    There’s many forms of nihilism, and purpose nihilism wasn’t the subject of my comment. A Nihilist is more stable than you think. A tree doesn’t need purpose to grow, and neither does a human. Instead they follow a process that’s expressed by the body in response to the environment. For humans we not only have physical sensation but also memories, ideas, and thoughts. Without a worldview these all still happen, and your body will still react to your thoughts and sensations without a purpose. A healthy Nihilist would not feel sad about having no meaning, since they never had one anyway; on reflection, they might feel happy that there’s no obligation to respond other than how their situation moves them to. A Nihilist can do what is morally right without the restrictions of a purpose that proscribes them to do otherwise.
    - kuchenbecker 3y ago
      I'm curious how you reconcile the explicit rejection of morality in Nihilism with your personal morality. I feel these are in conflict. --- Longer take: Defining what is morally right requires value judgement, and Nihilism rejects morality. What Is (facts) can't tell us what we ought to do. [1] To build a moral framework on what one ought to do, you must necessarily ascribe meaning and value judgement otherwise it can't claim to be moral and it would merely be actions you perform devoid of meaning. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem
      - injeolmi_love 3y ago
        There isn’t a fundamental difference between ought/is. Both moral judgements and facts are based on reasoned beliefs. Why do you think meaning is required for making a value judgement? I can very easily claim that killing humans is wrong without relying on any metaphysics, just like I can claim the sky is blue. Both are beliefs based on reasons; meaning can be discarded.
        kuchenbecker 3y ago
        That meaning can be discarded doesn't imply it ought to be discarded. --- Morals/meaning have a shaky absolute foundation, in that deep down nothing probably matters and the universe is indifferent. However I'm a person, born in modern society; everything has relative meaning even if the epistemological foundations are shaky. I see Nihilism similar the mathematicians trying to prove foundational math [1], and similarly doubting it's actually fundamental. Yet here we are using math to amazing things! Math doesn't need to be true for it to be useful. I find useful things valuable. Meaning, in particular shared meaning, is similarly valuable and worth pursuing even if they can't be proven. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Nothing objectively matters. You are free to invent things and ascribe them meaning. Meaninglessness is a discovery, meaning is a creation.
  - akoboldfrying 3y ago
    >why act that way when nothing matters? I agree but I think the breakdown is even stronger than that: Nihilism gives you no way to decide what is "better" in the first place.
- kuchenbecker 3y ago
  My take on Nihilism: If you've gotten to Nihilism, you have a blank slate to build what you Do believe. Ascribing meaning to things has value. For example, human life in Nihilism is unimportant, which may or may not be true, but we all benefit from the shared belief in the value of life even if it's technically wrong. So don't stop at Nihilism as the conclusion but rather use it as a canvas and build up what's meaningful to you. With any luck, others will find the same things as you meaningful.
  - collingreen 3y ago
    This is a really positive take and I appreciate you writing it.
    - kuchenbecker 3y ago
      You're welcome! It was my way out of Nihilism. The pursuit of being good is more important and valuable than us all agreeing on what is good (or even that good exists at all). And given that goal, all you can do is try your best.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    The best direction to move from nihilism is absurdism. You can still be correct but now you can enjoy it.
a-french-anon 3y ago
You're left with wisdom, not nihilism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

injeolmi_love 3y ago

And what exactly is wrong with a nihilism? If we don’t really know what’s going on, maybe we should accept that truth and move on with living better lives less swayed by political propaganda. Given how many relationships have been ruined because both sides were certain of their political facts, a nihilism seems simply better.

akprasad 3y ago
Broadly, nihilism rejects purpose and meaning. I don't see how one can justify we "move on with living better lives" within such a worldview (i.e. why act that way when nothing matters?).
- tptacek 3y ago
  What the last two comments are really saying is that "nihilism" isn't the right word for the state you enter when you give up on developing an accurate picture of the world from luridly presented tragedies in news stories.
  - matt_j 3y ago
    The right word would be "apathy".
    - tptacek 3y ago
      No, that's not at all right.
- injeolmi_love 3y ago
  There’s many forms of nihilism, and purpose nihilism wasn’t the subject of my comment. A Nihilist is more stable than you think. A tree doesn’t need purpose to grow, and neither does a human. Instead they follow a process that’s expressed by the body in response to the environment. For humans we not only have physical sensation but also memories, ideas, and thoughts. Without a worldview these all still happen, and your body will still react to your thoughts and sensations without a purpose. A healthy Nihilist would not feel sad about having no meaning, since they never had one anyway; on reflection, they might feel happy that there’s no obligation to respond other than how their situation moves them to. A Nihilist can do what is morally right without the restrictions of a purpose that proscribes them to do otherwise.
  - kuchenbecker 3y ago
    I'm curious how you reconcile the explicit rejection of morality in Nihilism with your personal morality. I feel these are in conflict. --- Longer take: Defining what is morally right requires value judgement, and Nihilism rejects morality. What Is (facts) can't tell us what we ought to do. [1] To build a moral framework on what one ought to do, you must necessarily ascribe meaning and value judgement otherwise it can't claim to be moral and it would merely be actions you perform devoid of meaning. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem
    - injeolmi_love 3y ago
      There isn’t a fundamental difference between ought/is. Both moral judgements and facts are based on reasoned beliefs. Why do you think meaning is required for making a value judgement? I can very easily claim that killing humans is wrong without relying on any metaphysics, just like I can claim the sky is blue. Both are beliefs based on reasons; meaning can be discarded.
      - kuchenbecker 3y ago
        That meaning can be discarded doesn't imply it ought to be discarded. --- Morals/meaning have a shaky absolute foundation, in that deep down nothing probably matters and the universe is indifferent. However I'm a person, born in modern society; everything has relative meaning even if the epistemological foundations are shaky. I see Nihilism similar the mathematicians trying to prove foundational math [1], and similarly doubting it's actually fundamental. Yet here we are using math to amazing things! Math doesn't need to be true for it to be useful. I find useful things valuable. Meaning, in particular shared meaning, is similarly valuable and worth pursuing even if they can't be proven. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory
- scotty79 3y ago
  Nothing objectively matters. You are free to invent things and ascribe them meaning. Meaninglessness is a discovery, meaning is a creation.
- akoboldfrying 3y ago
  >why act that way when nothing matters? I agree but I think the breakdown is even stronger than that: Nihilism gives you no way to decide what is "better" in the first place.
kuchenbecker 3y ago
My take on Nihilism: If you've gotten to Nihilism, you have a blank slate to build what you Do believe. Ascribing meaning to things has value. For example, human life in Nihilism is unimportant, which may or may not be true, but we all benefit from the shared belief in the value of life even if it's technically wrong. So don't stop at Nihilism as the conclusion but rather use it as a canvas and build up what's meaningful to you. With any luck, others will find the same things as you meaningful.
- collingreen 3y ago
  This is a really positive take and I appreciate you writing it.
  - kuchenbecker 3y ago
    You're welcome! It was my way out of Nihilism. The pursuit of being good is more important and valuable than us all agreeing on what is good (or even that good exists at all). And given that goal, all you can do is try your best.
- scotty79 3y ago
  The best direction to move from nihilism is absurdism. You can still be correct but now you can enjoy it.

a-french-anon 3y ago

You're left with wisdom, not nihilism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing