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To put it simply: the wage calculation is between the company and the employee, not the customer and the employee. The company socialising their wages out to t

To put it simply: the wage calculation is between the company and the employee, not the customer and the employee. The company socialising their wages out to their customers via tips is fucking absurd.

huytersd 3y ago
Meh I hate tipping culture as much as the next person but you really can’t run, for instance a dive bar, and pay the bartender $15 an hour. The foot traffic doesn’t bring in nearly enough most of the time. The end result would just be far fewer food and drink places which I wouldn’t like.
- ncallaway 3y ago
  If they can't bring in enough foot-traffic that they can pay a bartender $15 an hour, then how is tipping going to make up the difference? There's also not enough foot traffic to make that work
- changoplatanero 3y ago
  That's the whole point though. If the types of restaurants that you like can't make enough money to offer jobs that workers would accept then those restaurants shouldn't exist. They can be replaced with more profitable businesses that more people will enjoy.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    That begs the question about what to do when the workers will accept lower wage, and there is not a more profitable business waiting to replace it. I dont know so many people make those assumptions. If there is a more profitable buisness, why isnt it there already?
    - contravariant 3y ago
      If they are offered more than enough money to be willing to stay and there's not a more profitable business waiting to replace it, then what exactly is the problem?
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        in the context of the minimum wage discussion, the problem is when the labor is willing but not allowed to work, ends up unemployed instead, and the store sits vacant.
        contravariant 3y ago
        And how is that related to businesses that cannot afford to pay their staff enough to keep them? We're not discussing minimum wage here. If we were I'd point out that minimum wage should at a minimum be the amount where letting the store remain vacant is equally preferable. However to ensure alignment I consider it better to put it higher to the point where people earning minimum wage aren't a burden on society (I mean a store with as much value to society as a vacant one doesn't really deserve to exist, you're just shifting the problem there, don't ever let industry do that for you).
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        >And how is that related to businesses that cannot afford to pay their staff enough to keep them? It was more of an addendum on the types of business that shouldnt exist, and business turnover in general. I agree that if a business cant make enough to attract talent, it makes sense that that it should fail (all other factors neglected).
  - huytersd 3y ago
    I’d like a lot of restaurants to exist though, I don’t want being able to find workers to be the limiting factor and have 4 choices for food instead of 40. Plus it lets a lot of business owners start up their own businesses and support a lot of workers.
    - genocidicbunny 3y ago
      Sure, I want a lot of restaurants, but I don't want them to exist due to them exploiting or underpaying their workers. A business is not entitled to workers, so if they cannot afford to pay enough to find workers, the business has failed. C'est la vie. I for one, do not see paying someone close to minimum wage in return for 40hr/wk of their time as 'supporting' workers. You want to really support workers? Pay them appropriately and provide them a good workplace.
- thefaux 3y ago
  There is a relatively simple solution to this problem in many cases: higher prices and buybacks.
- droopyEyelids 3y ago
  I'm not following. If the bartender is making enough not to quit, the money is there. The accounting sleight of hand where they seem to pay less for the food and drink but actually don't because they must add a tip doesn't change how much income is going into the establishment.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    The “enough not to quit” could be much lower than $15, like $7/hour. You can’t advertise $7 and get workers but you can dangle potential tips in front of them. The whole thing is weird game theory.
- fullspectrumdev 3y ago
  Bar workers in my country get about 13$ per hour. And get to keep whatever tips. We also have no shortage of bars, tipping is entirely optional and often viewed as an unwelcome American import.
- tomrod 3y ago
  Dive bars are like carnivals, then, and can only exist if they extract consumer surplus. I reckon there is a reason carnivals no longer thrive with the advent of public parks. Perhaps similar capitalistic creative destruction would occur for dive bars if the incentives were changed.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I dont think that logic really follows. The cost to the consumer foot traffic is the same if it is tip or wage. If customers are willing to pay the price + tip to have a equivalent $15/hr salary, they should be willing to do so with just the price, e.g. $5 beers vs $4 beers +$1 tip. Im sure there are some cultural issues around changing the norm in the US, but it works out mathematically, and there is evidence from all around the world where tipping is not the norm.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    Well the restaurant doesn’t guarantee the worker $15. If you don’t have enough tips, the worker just makes less.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      This isn’t true in the US: if the minimum wage is $15 and the worker only makes $8 in tips, the employer is required by law to cover the difference. Note: this doesn’t change the fact that minimum wage is a pittance.
TheCleric 3y ago
I agree but as long as the government makes it easy to do, it will continue.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Since tipping is expected even in the states with no separate tipped minimum wages, the only way this would happen is if the government prohibited people from giving money to other people. There is no government involvement in tipping, it is a social custom. And I don’t think the government can or should do anything about it.
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    > There is no government involvement in tipping As long as there are separate laws for tipped vs non tipped employees, the government is involved in tipping. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Federal law requires the same minimum wage, regardless of tipped or not tipped. So if you don’t tip, the employer has to make up the difference. Also, note > Since tipping is expected even in the states with no separate tipped minimum wages,
      - TheCleric 3y ago
        > Federal law requires the same minimum wage, regardless of tipped or not tipped. And if you believe that actually happens I’ve got a bridge in London to sell you. Every person I’ve ever met who has ever lived on tips has been hosed on this. Employers will just adjust your hours to make the math work out rather than paying you more money. There’s a reason wage theft is a $50 billion dollar a year grift (though that’s not limited to just tipped employees).

huytersd 3y ago

Meh I hate tipping culture as much as the next person but you really can’t run, for instance a dive bar, and pay the bartender $15 an hour. The foot traffic doesn’t bring in nearly enough most of the time. The end result would just be far fewer food and drink places which I wouldn’t like.

ncallaway 3y ago
If they can't bring in enough foot-traffic that they can pay a bartender $15 an hour, then how is tipping going to make up the difference? There's also not enough foot traffic to make that work
changoplatanero 3y ago
That's the whole point though. If the types of restaurants that you like can't make enough money to offer jobs that workers would accept then those restaurants shouldn't exist. They can be replaced with more profitable businesses that more people will enjoy.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  That begs the question about what to do when the workers will accept lower wage, and there is not a more profitable business waiting to replace it. I dont know so many people make those assumptions. If there is a more profitable buisness, why isnt it there already?
  - contravariant 3y ago
    If they are offered more than enough money to be willing to stay and there's not a more profitable business waiting to replace it, then what exactly is the problem?
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      in the context of the minimum wage discussion, the problem is when the labor is willing but not allowed to work, ends up unemployed instead, and the store sits vacant.
      - contravariant 3y ago
        And how is that related to businesses that cannot afford to pay their staff enough to keep them? We're not discussing minimum wage here. If we were I'd point out that minimum wage should at a minimum be the amount where letting the store remain vacant is equally preferable. However to ensure alignment I consider it better to put it higher to the point where people earning minimum wage aren't a burden on society (I mean a store with as much value to society as a vacant one doesn't really deserve to exist, you're just shifting the problem there, don't ever let industry do that for you).
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        >And how is that related to businesses that cannot afford to pay their staff enough to keep them? It was more of an addendum on the types of business that shouldnt exist, and business turnover in general. I agree that if a business cant make enough to attract talent, it makes sense that that it should fail (all other factors neglected).
- huytersd 3y ago
  I’d like a lot of restaurants to exist though, I don’t want being able to find workers to be the limiting factor and have 4 choices for food instead of 40. Plus it lets a lot of business owners start up their own businesses and support a lot of workers.
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    Sure, I want a lot of restaurants, but I don't want them to exist due to them exploiting or underpaying their workers. A business is not entitled to workers, so if they cannot afford to pay enough to find workers, the business has failed. C'est la vie. I for one, do not see paying someone close to minimum wage in return for 40hr/wk of their time as 'supporting' workers. You want to really support workers? Pay them appropriately and provide them a good workplace.
thefaux 3y ago
There is a relatively simple solution to this problem in many cases: higher prices and buybacks.
droopyEyelids 3y ago
I'm not following. If the bartender is making enough not to quit, the money is there. The accounting sleight of hand where they seem to pay less for the food and drink but actually don't because they must add a tip doesn't change how much income is going into the establishment.
- huytersd 3y ago
  The “enough not to quit” could be much lower than $15, like $7/hour. You can’t advertise $7 and get workers but you can dangle potential tips in front of them. The whole thing is weird game theory.
fullspectrumdev 3y ago
Bar workers in my country get about 13$ per hour. And get to keep whatever tips. We also have no shortage of bars, tipping is entirely optional and often viewed as an unwelcome American import.
tomrod 3y ago
Dive bars are like carnivals, then, and can only exist if they extract consumer surplus. I reckon there is a reason carnivals no longer thrive with the advent of public parks. Perhaps similar capitalistic creative destruction would occur for dive bars if the incentives were changed.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
I dont think that logic really follows. The cost to the consumer foot traffic is the same if it is tip or wage. If customers are willing to pay the price + tip to have a equivalent $15/hr salary, they should be willing to do so with just the price, e.g. $5 beers vs $4 beers +$1 tip. Im sure there are some cultural issues around changing the norm in the US, but it works out mathematically, and there is evidence from all around the world where tipping is not the norm.
- huytersd 3y ago
  Well the restaurant doesn’t guarantee the worker $15. If you don’t have enough tips, the worker just makes less.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    This isn’t true in the US: if the minimum wage is $15 and the worker only makes $8 in tips, the employer is required by law to cover the difference. Note: this doesn’t change the fact that minimum wage is a pittance.

TheCleric 3y ago

I agree but as long as the government makes it easy to do, it will continue.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Since tipping is expected even in the states with no separate tipped minimum wages, the only way this would happen is if the government prohibited people from giving money to other people. There is no government involvement in tipping, it is a social custom. And I don’t think the government can or should do anything about it.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  > There is no government involvement in tipping As long as there are separate laws for tipped vs non tipped employees, the government is involved in tipping. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Federal law requires the same minimum wage, regardless of tipped or not tipped. So if you don’t tip, the employer has to make up the difference. Also, note > Since tipping is expected even in the states with no separate tipped minimum wages,
    - TheCleric 3y ago
      > Federal law requires the same minimum wage, regardless of tipped or not tipped. And if you believe that actually happens I’ve got a bridge in London to sell you. Every person I’ve ever met who has ever lived on tips has been hosed on this. Employers will just adjust your hours to make the math work out rather than paying you more money. There’s a reason wage theft is a $50 billion dollar a year grift (though that’s not limited to just tipped employees).