4 ms·

> Staff rely on tips because wages are not at a living level Fucking lol. > Crap like this is so demoralizing Yes, but not because people don't tip. > becau

> Staff rely on tips because wages are not at a living level Fucking lol. > Crap like this is so demoralizing Yes, but not because people don't tip. > because workers need the money to live Yet the capitalist who don't want to pay a living level wage is totally not the reason workers need tips.

fishtacos 3y ago
What's the difference? The end result is the same for the worker.
- njovin 3y ago
  The difference is that the by allowing business to pay under minimum wage (in some states), the business get to create an adversarial relationship between the staff and the customers, and blame the customers when staff don't make as much money as they'd hoped. This is IMO bad for everyone's happiness. Servers get upset with customers for not tipping enough and customers get to feel pressure and anxiety over tipping. Compare that to a world where the employer has to actually pay their employees their full wage (like literally every other industry), and now you have predictable wages and less friction throughout the dining experience.
  - fishtacos 3y ago
    NO s**. That was my point. I apologize for the directness here, but you are out of touch with reality. If there is no political will to increase baseline wages for service staff, then the end result is exactly the same - employees will blame bad tippers because of the (what should be abnormal) tipping culture in the US, and are dependent on employers for their hours of work, so they'll lay blame wherever available. I waited tables at semi-high-end restaurants. Worked doubles opening and closing from 10a to 12p... averaged 11/h on the busiest nights after carrying trays upon heavy trays for what felt like hours on end. I KNOW what I'm talking about from personal experience. I didn't mind the work, shift-leader, blah blah blah. I had colleagues walking away with 15 bucks TOTAL after a 5 hour shift, but it was averaged out to at least 7.35/h bi-weekly, so you can imagine the end result. It's not sustainable. It's denigrating.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > Compare that to a world where the employer has to actually pay their employees their full wage (like literally every other industry), and now you have predictable wages and less friction throughout the dining experience. This world has existed on the west coast of the US for a long time, and tip expectations have still marched upwards.
    - fishtacos 3y ago
      Cool - The West Coast of the US isn't the only part of the US.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        It is an example that disproves njovin’s claim, since tipping is a social phenomenon.
        fishtacos 3y ago
        Tipping on top of normal wages is normal in all of Europe, our closest Western cousins. I come from Eastern Europe, and I always tip (perhaps out of a Western custom, but also becaause I know how s** wages are there, so out of respect for acknowledging their crap wages and their service, even if I know they are paid a regular base wage). This is not what we're talking about at all. Tipping is not simply a social phenomenon when other people's living circumstances depend on it. It becomes an economic necessity when (as the RTFA mentioned, if you'd read it) it becomes required to make a living wage.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38453088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38453088
petsfed 3y ago
I think there is an element of shitty consumer behavior here. Its axiomatic: people want to pay as little as possible. But there's a certain kind of consumer, who goes out of their way to flaunt that while they could pay more, they're not going to. And its not because the extra $10 for a reasonable tip would break them. Its not because they fundamentally disagree with the concept of tipping (although that may well be the case in addition). Its because the person "tipping" believes that no adult should be working at a movie theater, and if they wanted to make real money, they'd get a real fucking job, and no, I'm not taking resumes, why would I want to hire somebody who could only get a job pouring beers at a movie theater?! Its really hard to overstate the antipathy that service sector employees experience on a regular basis, and how far out of their way certain customers will go to make sure that those employees know that those certain customers hold them in utter contempt.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Hm. I definitely don't want to pay as little as possible, for most things. I don't want cheap ingredients when I'm cooking. I don't want a BS car I bought for a song. I tip well, egregiously well, because those folks work hard for their living, I used to do that, and I appreciate what they're going thru. But, as my old minister used to say, we can have all the morals we can afford. Not going to tell anybody else how to do it.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  "Temporarily embarrassed millionaires" again? You know the difference between a staff abused by customers and who are paid below the living level wage and a staff abused by customers and who are paid higher than the living level wage? The latter can actually live on their wage and don't need tips to sustain themselves. Now tell me, do the abusive customers sets the wage or the owner of the business?
  - fishtacos 3y ago
    NO one is being abused by customers in any literal way. The abuse comes from coerction of losing a job by complaining to mgmt. v. directing their complaints to the ones that are supposed to supplant the 2.13/h that the STATE mandates. Thsi is not strictly an employer's fault, so hard to blame them for not giving a s**. It's a political deficiency in enforcing living wages as a baseline of income instead of 2.13/h. That's developing world wages, not US wages, or should be, if it weren't the reality.

fishtacos 3y ago

What's the difference? The end result is the same for the worker.

njovin 3y ago
The difference is that the by allowing business to pay under minimum wage (in some states), the business get to create an adversarial relationship between the staff and the customers, and blame the customers when staff don't make as much money as they'd hoped. This is IMO bad for everyone's happiness. Servers get upset with customers for not tipping enough and customers get to feel pressure and anxiety over tipping. Compare that to a world where the employer has to actually pay their employees their full wage (like literally every other industry), and now you have predictable wages and less friction throughout the dining experience.
- fishtacos 3y ago
  NO s**. That was my point. I apologize for the directness here, but you are out of touch with reality. If there is no political will to increase baseline wages for service staff, then the end result is exactly the same - employees will blame bad tippers because of the (what should be abnormal) tipping culture in the US, and are dependent on employers for their hours of work, so they'll lay blame wherever available. I waited tables at semi-high-end restaurants. Worked doubles opening and closing from 10a to 12p... averaged 11/h on the busiest nights after carrying trays upon heavy trays for what felt like hours on end. I KNOW what I'm talking about from personal experience. I didn't mind the work, shift-leader, blah blah blah. I had colleagues walking away with 15 bucks TOTAL after a 5 hour shift, but it was averaged out to at least 7.35/h bi-weekly, so you can imagine the end result. It's not sustainable. It's denigrating.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > Compare that to a world where the employer has to actually pay their employees their full wage (like literally every other industry), and now you have predictable wages and less friction throughout the dining experience. This world has existed on the west coast of the US for a long time, and tip expectations have still marched upwards.
  - fishtacos 3y ago
    Cool - The West Coast of the US isn't the only part of the US.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      It is an example that disproves njovin’s claim, since tipping is a social phenomenon.
      - fishtacos 3y ago
        Tipping on top of normal wages is normal in all of Europe, our closest Western cousins. I come from Eastern Europe, and I always tip (perhaps out of a Western custom, but also becaause I know how s** wages are there, so out of respect for acknowledging their crap wages and their service, even if I know they are paid a regular base wage). This is not what we're talking about at all. Tipping is not simply a social phenomenon when other people's living circumstances depend on it. It becomes an economic necessity when (as the RTFA mentioned, if you'd read it) it becomes required to make a living wage.
justsomehnguy 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38453088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38453088

petsfed 3y ago

I think there is an element of shitty consumer behavior here. Its axiomatic: people want to pay as little as possible. But there's a certain kind of consumer, who goes out of their way to flaunt that while they could pay more, they're not going to. And its not because the extra $10 for a reasonable tip would break them. Its not because they fundamentally disagree with the concept of tipping (although that may well be the case in addition). Its because the person "tipping" believes that no adult should be working at a movie theater, and if they wanted to make real money, they'd get a real fucking job, and no, I'm not taking resumes, why would I want to hire somebody who could only get a job pouring beers at a movie theater?! Its really hard to overstate the antipathy that service sector employees experience on a regular basis, and how far out of their way certain customers will go to make sure that those employees know that those certain customers hold them in utter contempt.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Hm. I definitely don't want to pay as little as possible, for most things. I don't want cheap ingredients when I'm cooking. I don't want a BS car I bought for a song. I tip well, egregiously well, because those folks work hard for their living, I used to do that, and I appreciate what they're going thru. But, as my old minister used to say, we can have all the morals we can afford. Not going to tell anybody else how to do it.
justsomehnguy 3y ago
"Temporarily embarrassed millionaires" again? You know the difference between a staff abused by customers and who are paid below the living level wage and a staff abused by customers and who are paid higher than the living level wage? The latter can actually live on their wage and don't need tips to sustain themselves. Now tell me, do the abusive customers sets the wage or the owner of the business?
- fishtacos 3y ago
  NO one is being abused by customers in any literal way. The abuse comes from coerction of losing a job by complaining to mgmt. v. directing their complaints to the ones that are supposed to supplant the 2.13/h that the STATE mandates. Thsi is not strictly an employer's fault, so hard to blame them for not giving a s**. It's a political deficiency in enforcing living wages as a baseline of income instead of 2.13/h. That's developing world wages, not US wages, or should be, if it weren't the reality.