5 ms·

I think the issue here is that people see some benefit from being able to claim victim status so there is a push to expand the definition of what a victim is.

I think the issue here is that people see some benefit from being able to claim victim status so there is a push to expand the definition of what a victim is. If you want to know why people have a problem with this consider that both a genocide survivor and micro-aggression survivor will claim victim status. The latter doing so with a straight face and often more fervor.

etchalon 3y ago
But, aren't both victims? Forcing anyone who has been subjected to anything to do so only if their suffering was as bad, relatively, as another arbitrary example, means the word "victim" has no real use, beyond some imaginary situation of absolute suffering. Anyone could challenge anyone's claim to victimhood just by pointing out a potentially worse situation for someone else.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
I came from a country which was... not particularly liberal or progressive. My dad is pushing 80. So he has at times some pretty old school knee jerk reactions about social progress. About once a decade he asks, somewhat grouchily, "Why are we suddenly talking so much about group X??" And the best answer I came up with, after years of conversations, to foster mutual understanding was: "because it's their turn! We made some progress with group Y, then we tackled group Z, and now we are trying to bring equality to group X. It doesn't detract from groups Y or Z we tackled in the past, the groups A & B that pretty much have power, or groups P & Q we should tackle in the future". In this grossly oversimplifed view of progress, we worked on / fought to give women right to vote and maybe even some rights, then we worked to give all races vote and maybe even some rights, then we turned to give gays and lesbians maybe some recognition and equality, now we are working on trans, etc. It does not take away from me as a tall white male! And giving african american voting rights did not take away from women having voting rights :). It's GOOD to keep going after all inequalities, rather than saying "Group A inequality is worse, so fuck off and shut up". That's not how we progress. Where I'm going with this - it's OK for both genocide survivor, and micro-aggression survivor, to claim victim status! We don't all have to have the same degree, and it's OK to help more and more people and fight for better and better equality :). Another analogy, if you will - when I moved to USA after years of civil war in the old country, my host family tried to use me as a scarecrow to their kids. "Eat your dinner, think of all the people in $COUNTRY who don't have food". That stopped when I indicated, politely & lovingly, that kids in $COUNTRY could not care less whether 9 year old Tommy in Minnesota ate his veggies or not. So as a survivor of civil war (and attempted or successful genocide depending on which side / country / historian you listen to, they're still figuring this out:), let me assure you I am not offended by micro-aggression survivors claiming victim status :)
- david422 3y ago
  > it's OK for both genocide survivor, and micro-aggression survivor, to claim victim status I think it's actually a pretty good sign of progress that if a society is worried about micro-aggressions it means that they are not worried about larger problems, like genocide.
- sifd 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bequanna 3y ago
    Shouldn’t progress simply be defined as equal treatment under the law? Once we get into the mode of granting special privileges for victims (real or imaginary) I think we have a big problem. People should aspire to achieve, not strive to complain about all the reasons (again, real or imaginary) why they couldn’t because they think they’ll get some reward for having the most victim points.
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      In Canada, early in the kindergarten they start teaching kids that "equal" and "just" and "same" aren't always synonyms. A good example they use is when kids of different heights may want to see or reach something; the shorter kid might benefit from a stool. Their situation isn't the same, but the result of this extra effort brings equality. There are still adults that will get very upset about granting the "special privilege" of a stool for the need and benefit "(real or imaginary)" of the shorter kid (I'm not sure if they too get "victim points" due to their pain and suffering over rights and privileges extended to minorities and victims), but I'm hopeful progress can be made over the course of generations :)
  - the_af 3y ago
    > There's an odd one out on your list of progressive causes: agreeing to the demands of the last group on your list actually undoes the progress made for women and lesbians. Not every progressive woman or lesbian agrees with your statement (though some do), so you cannot state this so categorically. In general, giving more rights to downtrodden and mistreated minorities seems right to me. Exceptions to this rule require special justification.
AlecSchueler 3y ago
They are both victims. Whether someone drowns in their bath or drowns in the ocean they have drowned.I can see and accept the tragedy in both circumstances while still understanding the respective gravities of danger between bathing and ocean swimming. I'm not sure what you mean by sharing victimhood with fervor. What emotions do the perpetrators of micro-aggressions exhibit when they commit? I would ask that we question the position of perpetrators as much, if not more, than victims.

etchalon 3y ago

But, aren't both victims? Forcing anyone who has been subjected to anything to do so only if their suffering was as bad, relatively, as another arbitrary example, means the word "victim" has no real use, beyond some imaginary situation of absolute suffering. Anyone could challenge anyone's claim to victimhood just by pointing out a potentially worse situation for someone else.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

I came from a country which was... not particularly liberal or progressive. My dad is pushing 80. So he has at times some pretty old school knee jerk reactions about social progress. About once a decade he asks, somewhat grouchily, "Why are we suddenly talking so much about group X??" And the best answer I came up with, after years of conversations, to foster mutual understanding was: "because it's their turn! We made some progress with group Y, then we tackled group Z, and now we are trying to bring equality to group X. It doesn't detract from groups Y or Z we tackled in the past, the groups A & B that pretty much have power, or groups P & Q we should tackle in the future". In this grossly oversimplifed view of progress, we worked on / fought to give women right to vote and maybe even some rights, then we worked to give all races vote and maybe even some rights, then we turned to give gays and lesbians maybe some recognition and equality, now we are working on trans, etc. It does not take away from me as a tall white male! And giving african american voting rights did not take away from women having voting rights :). It's GOOD to keep going after all inequalities, rather than saying "Group A inequality is worse, so fuck off and shut up". That's not how we progress. Where I'm going with this - it's OK for both genocide survivor, and micro-aggression survivor, to claim victim status! We don't all have to have the same degree, and it's OK to help more and more people and fight for better and better equality :). Another analogy, if you will - when I moved to USA after years of civil war in the old country, my host family tried to use me as a scarecrow to their kids. "Eat your dinner, think of all the people in $COUNTRY who don't have food". That stopped when I indicated, politely & lovingly, that kids in $COUNTRY could not care less whether 9 year old Tommy in Minnesota ate his veggies or not. So as a survivor of civil war (and attempted or successful genocide depending on which side / country / historian you listen to, they're still figuring this out:), let me assure you I am not offended by micro-aggression survivors claiming victim status :)

david422 3y ago
> it's OK for both genocide survivor, and micro-aggression survivor, to claim victim status I think it's actually a pretty good sign of progress that if a society is worried about micro-aggressions it means that they are not worried about larger problems, like genocide.
sifd 3y ago
[flagged]
- bequanna 3y ago
  Shouldn’t progress simply be defined as equal treatment under the law? Once we get into the mode of granting special privileges for victims (real or imaginary) I think we have a big problem. People should aspire to achieve, not strive to complain about all the reasons (again, real or imaginary) why they couldn’t because they think they’ll get some reward for having the most victim points.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    In Canada, early in the kindergarten they start teaching kids that "equal" and "just" and "same" aren't always synonyms. A good example they use is when kids of different heights may want to see or reach something; the shorter kid might benefit from a stool. Their situation isn't the same, but the result of this extra effort brings equality. There are still adults that will get very upset about granting the "special privilege" of a stool for the need and benefit "(real or imaginary)" of the shorter kid (I'm not sure if they too get "victim points" due to their pain and suffering over rights and privileges extended to minorities and victims), but I'm hopeful progress can be made over the course of generations :)
- the_af 3y ago
  > There's an odd one out on your list of progressive causes: agreeing to the demands of the last group on your list actually undoes the progress made for women and lesbians. Not every progressive woman or lesbian agrees with your statement (though some do), so you cannot state this so categorically. In general, giving more rights to downtrodden and mistreated minorities seems right to me. Exceptions to this rule require special justification.

AlecSchueler 3y ago

They are both victims. Whether someone drowns in their bath or drowns in the ocean they have drowned.I can see and accept the tragedy in both circumstances while still understanding the respective gravities of danger between bathing and ocean swimming. I'm not sure what you mean by sharing victimhood with fervor. What emotions do the perpetrators of micro-aggressions exhibit when they commit? I would ask that we question the position of perpetrators as much, if not more, than victims.