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> It is absolutely incompatible with the rule of law that workers can selectively fail to perform government services for someone they don't like, and not be di

> It is absolutely incompatible with the rule of law that workers can selectively fail to perform government services for someone they don't like, and not be disciplined. This is not a labor rights issue, it is an issue of the government's sovereignty and ability to fulfill its duties. Whose law? Yours? This is compatible with the rule of law in Nordic countries, including my own. PostNord is a private company. EDIT: PostNord is public, not private and is jointly owned by Sweden and Denmark. This is what labor fighting back looks like. United. That US labor rights were disemboweled by the Taft-Harley Act means everything to the Nordic countries who are using their rights as labor to organize and say now's enough. The US will always remain a lopsided democracy so long as workers cannot stop the machine en masse. I talk a lot of shit on the European model but this is something I am happy to join my fellow sisters and brothers in labor protesting. Musk's attacks on unions stops here.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
Postnord is a 100% government owned service provider. Do you think Judges should be able to boycott hearing cases they dont like? Should police be able to boycott calls from people they oppose?
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  > Postnord is a 100% government owned service provider. You're right, my mistake. It's jointly owned by Sweden and Denmark.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Do you think Judges should be able to boycott hearing cases they dont like? But this isn't comparable. Nobody has a right to register their car when they want. It's economic harm being caused in a precedented manner. Ignorance of the history of a country's customs and laws doesn't exempt you from them. In America, national security is the precedented equivalent. If a postal worker suspects something dangerous is being transmitted, they're absolutely allowed to use individual discretion to delay or even suspend delivery. This is loosely codified, but not to the level of an individual driver. In Sweden, labour disputes are similarly elevated in a way that is precedented.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    > Nobody has a right to register their car when they want Under Swedish law the Transport Agency is required to provide license plates.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    You said judges aren't comparable, but labor is free to protest. If you are the expert on Swedish custom and law, please explain the difference and where the line is drawn in Sweden. Otherwise, it seems you are just making bold claims of personal opinion, and then calling everyone else ignorant.
- tokai 3y ago
  You questions are bizarre. Of course judges and police should be able to strike. Usually critical areas like law, health, will not strike completely but have some employees keep working on critical tasks. There is no arbitrariness in this, its fantasy of yours. There are common agreements between workers associations and employers, often different by profession. If these are not upheld by the parties involved, several tools of labor struggle are legal to be used, like striking an sympathy strikes. There is a legal and contractual frame underpinning all of this, which can also be challenged as tesla is doing. All this what-about-personal-boycotts is pie in the sky fearmongering to be honest.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I dont see the distinction that you are drawing, and I'm not talking about a general or partial strike. I am talking about a targeted strike. >All this what-about-personal-boycotts is pie in the sky fearmongering to be honest. I didn't stay anything about it being arbitrary/personal. Do you really think that Judges should be able to boycott hearing cases from organizations or companies?
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      Hypotheticals are irrelevant. Sweden has had this system for 75 years.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        >Hypotheticals are irrelevant. You don't get to decide what I think is relevant. I dont think the current system in Sweden is relevant to the question of if tokai think Judges should be able to boycott cases. The fact that the current system has existed for 75 years doesn't even mean anything about the postnord case (which hasnt been decided) or if the Swedish government is required to ensure equal accesses to government services or law.
        Hikikomori 3y ago
        We can make up hypotheticals to make anything look bad all day, doesn't make them likely to happen. A track record of 75 years with nothing like those hypotheticals says something. There's no discrimination happening here as Tesla is not a protected group that is covered by this. The right to strike is a fundamental right enshrined in Swedens constitution. The government is very hands off when it comes to labour disputes. PostNord is a government owned private company, their employees are not working for the state.
- mrmanner 3y ago
  They’re 100 % government owned, but not by the Swedish government. That’s not so important though - what is important is that they’re operating commercially under the same regulation as numerous competitors that are not part-owned by the Swedish government[1]. Police, judges, and other actual government officials have much less freedom to strike. [1]: Some owned by private investors, some owned by other governments. Welcome to the EU.
morpheuskafka 3y ago
The law (including ECHR) protecting the private property in the mail that is being trespassed by the workers refusing to either deliver or give it back, and the law setting the rates and service standards for the post which was paid and not honored. I think the workers at Tesla should unionize and get better treatment. I wouldn't want to work for one of Musk's companies. My concern is that if I lived in such a country, I'd be afraid that one day my city water would be disconnected or they'd refuse to renew my drivers license or passport, because I did something that those workers didn't like. I'll admit to not researching the details of PostNord, but it is listed as a state-owned enterprise in Wikipedia and it fulfills Sweden's participation in the UPU. If it were purely private like FedEx, I wouldn't have the same argument--though in that case, my argument would be that the DMV needs to use another post if they know one is refusing to deliver.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > it fulfills Sweden's participation in the UPU Is the UPU relevant to domestic deliveries?
- mrmanner 3y ago
  The Swedish DMV has been ordered by the court to ensure Tesla can pick up their plates within seven days at the latest, so your argument at the end is sort of what’s happening here :)

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Postnord is a 100% government owned service provider. Do you think Judges should be able to boycott hearing cases they dont like? Should police be able to boycott calls from people they oppose?

emptysongglass 3y ago
> Postnord is a 100% government owned service provider. You're right, my mistake. It's jointly owned by Sweden and Denmark.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Do you think Judges should be able to boycott hearing cases they dont like? But this isn't comparable. Nobody has a right to register their car when they want. It's economic harm being caused in a precedented manner. Ignorance of the history of a country's customs and laws doesn't exempt you from them. In America, national security is the precedented equivalent. If a postal worker suspects something dangerous is being transmitted, they're absolutely allowed to use individual discretion to delay or even suspend delivery. This is loosely codified, but not to the level of an individual driver. In Sweden, labour disputes are similarly elevated in a way that is precedented.
- belltaco 3y ago
  > Nobody has a right to register their car when they want Under Swedish law the Transport Agency is required to provide license plates.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  You said judges aren't comparable, but labor is free to protest. If you are the expert on Swedish custom and law, please explain the difference and where the line is drawn in Sweden. Otherwise, it seems you are just making bold claims of personal opinion, and then calling everyone else ignorant.
tokai 3y ago
You questions are bizarre. Of course judges and police should be able to strike. Usually critical areas like law, health, will not strike completely but have some employees keep working on critical tasks. There is no arbitrariness in this, its fantasy of yours. There are common agreements between workers associations and employers, often different by profession. If these are not upheld by the parties involved, several tools of labor struggle are legal to be used, like striking an sympathy strikes. There is a legal and contractual frame underpinning all of this, which can also be challenged as tesla is doing. All this what-about-personal-boycotts is pie in the sky fearmongering to be honest.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I dont see the distinction that you are drawing, and I'm not talking about a general or partial strike. I am talking about a targeted strike. >All this what-about-personal-boycotts is pie in the sky fearmongering to be honest. I didn't stay anything about it being arbitrary/personal. Do you really think that Judges should be able to boycott hearing cases from organizations or companies?
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    Hypotheticals are irrelevant. Sweden has had this system for 75 years.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      >Hypotheticals are irrelevant. You don't get to decide what I think is relevant. I dont think the current system in Sweden is relevant to the question of if tokai think Judges should be able to boycott cases. The fact that the current system has existed for 75 years doesn't even mean anything about the postnord case (which hasnt been decided) or if the Swedish government is required to ensure equal accesses to government services or law.
      - Hikikomori 3y ago
        We can make up hypotheticals to make anything look bad all day, doesn't make them likely to happen. A track record of 75 years with nothing like those hypotheticals says something. There's no discrimination happening here as Tesla is not a protected group that is covered by this. The right to strike is a fundamental right enshrined in Swedens constitution. The government is very hands off when it comes to labour disputes. PostNord is a government owned private company, their employees are not working for the state.
mrmanner 3y ago
They’re 100 % government owned, but not by the Swedish government. That’s not so important though - what is important is that they’re operating commercially under the same regulation as numerous competitors that are not part-owned by the Swedish government[1]. Police, judges, and other actual government officials have much less freedom to strike. [1]: Some owned by private investors, some owned by other governments. Welcome to the EU.

morpheuskafka 3y ago

The law (including ECHR) protecting the private property in the mail that is being trespassed by the workers refusing to either deliver or give it back, and the law setting the rates and service standards for the post which was paid and not honored. I think the workers at Tesla should unionize and get better treatment. I wouldn't want to work for one of Musk's companies. My concern is that if I lived in such a country, I'd be afraid that one day my city water would be disconnected or they'd refuse to renew my drivers license or passport, because I did something that those workers didn't like. I'll admit to not researching the details of PostNord, but it is listed as a state-owned enterprise in Wikipedia and it fulfills Sweden's participation in the UPU. If it were purely private like FedEx, I wouldn't have the same argument--though in that case, my argument would be that the DMV needs to use another post if they know one is refusing to deliver.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> it fulfills Sweden's participation in the UPU Is the UPU relevant to domestic deliveries?
mrmanner 3y ago
The Swedish DMV has been ordered by the court to ensure Tesla can pick up their plates within seven days at the latest, so your argument at the end is sort of what’s happening here :)