4 ms·

I'm not calling for outlawing anything. I'm just noticing that it's sad. If you see an inebriated person sleeping on the sidewalk you can think it's sad and not

by bko 3y ago

I'm not calling for outlawing anything. I'm just noticing that it's sad. If you see an inebriated person sleeping on the sidewalk you can think it's sad and not be in favor for his incarceration. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is either allowed or disallowed. You can allow something but think it's unfortunate people choose to do those things.

taylodl 3y ago
That's not how most people are going to read your statement "We lost our ability to apply any kind of moral judgement". You're looking at the world through the lens of moral failings rather than taking the hard look at what drives people to this behavior. Why do people self-medicate? Why are people behaving as though their lives were hopeless and full of despair? Why are so many people wanting to watch the world burn? There are answers to these questions, and it's not moral failings, at least not in the way one would think.
- bko 3y ago
  These aren't mostly acts of desperation. Those were the cam girls in eastern Europe. This has democratized to middle class American girls. I heard a lot of them speak on Whatever dating podcast. They often leave jobs or college after learning they can earn 5 figures per month on of (of course that's the 0.1% but it lures many more that fail). And men are lurer into unrealistic standards and fake online relationships with call center workers. It's just dishonest So why do they do that? Because society tells them it's liberating. Back to my comment it starts with language. Media reports on it in sanitized terms where you wouldn't know what it even is that's being sold. People self medicare with weed because it's legal and now there's no taboo on using it even in dangerous situations like when you're driving. And since it's legal it's fine to be high all waking hours of the day. I've known people like this and honestly thinks it leads to psychosis People gamble because it's now easier than ever. You can even get lottery tickets from an app, all run by the state with full knowledge it overwhelmingly hits poor people. It's really gross. Did we have to expand to mobile apps for lottery?
- gotoeleven 3y ago
  Its not clear society can actually function if no one is beholden to any kind of moral judgement in any way. For the slow witted, note that beholden here doesn't have to mean 'coerced under penalty of law' it can simply mean shamed.
  - taylodl 3y ago
    Who's to judge and what gives them the authority to judge? We've learned priests adhering to ancient fairy tales don't make for very good judges. Have any other ideas?
    - gspencley 3y ago
      > Who's to judge You are. > what gives them the authority to judge? Reason. You judge according to your hierarchy of values. If you value life, you judge a murderer. If you value individual liberty and agency, you judge a rapist. If you value reason & logic, you judge those who dispense with it.
      - taylodl 3y ago
        These are poor counterexamples as murder and rape are two things universally agreed upon as being bad by all societies. Try something contentious - e.g. homosexuality. Who has the authority to judge that? While morals can be based on analytic philosophy (which I'm personally a fan of) the fact remains that analytic philosophy may still be susceptible to Gödel's incompleteness and moreover, not everybody agrees with this approach.
        gspencley 3y ago
        You're skirting around the issue. > Try something contentious - e.g. homosexuality. Who has the authority to judge that? Again. YOU do. I'm not saying that I would agree with your individual judgement if you believed that homosexuality was "wrong." But YOU have the individual, personal, moral authority to choose your value system and to judge accordingly. "Judge" is not a dirty word. You judge potential romantic partners when dating. You judge the place you want to work. You judge the types of products that you like to buy. You do all of this according to your personal values and your sense of reason. Law and politics is a completely separate matter from "judging." Law does not exist to enforce some socially agreed upon set of moral values and I think that's what you're getting hung up. There, you and I likely find a lot of agreement. Since politics pertains to how people organize socially, there are a lot of valid questions as to what should or should not be allowed/prohibited by "law." And people will and often do bring morality into that discussion, but fundamentally it's different from "morality" since I can think that, for example, abusing heroin is immoral but still think it should be completely legal. > While morals can be based on analytic philosophy (which I'm personally a fan of) the fact remains that analytic philosophy may still be susceptible to Gödel's incompleteness and moreover, not everybody agrees with this approach. You lost me here. My personal world view is that morality is a requirement of a rational mind. It is a code of values that guides you, the individual, when faced with alternatives. Should I kill the person I don't like or should I try and live in peace with the world? Should I inject heroin tonight or go for a workout? Should I obtain my wealth through fraud and theft or should I try and exchange value for value? I don't subscribe to "universal" or "collective" morality. People may subscribe to similar codes of values, but they do so individually and independently. That doesn't necessarily mean that morality is "subjective". Values are objective in the sense that you can measure their impact on a person's life. But we are all individuals. We need morality individually because we have reason, and therefore our individual code of morality derives from our application of reason (or lack thereof if you, for example, subscribe to the belief that homosexuality is immoral).
nickthegreek 3y ago
Several of my friends are onlyfans models/photographers and their morals are not only intact, but stronger and more thought out than most peoples... especially those who want to talk down to them about their morale failings.
- gotoeleven 3y ago
  What do you mean their morals are intact and stronger and more thought out? Is there some moral case for prostitution beyond "I like money and dont mind showing my boobs to people" ?

by bko 3y ago

taylodl 3y ago

That's not how most people are going to read your statement "We lost our ability to apply any kind of moral judgement". You're looking at the world through the lens of moral failings rather than taking the hard look at what drives people to this behavior. Why do people self-medicate? Why are people behaving as though their lives were hopeless and full of despair? Why are so many people wanting to watch the world burn? There are answers to these questions, and it's not moral failings, at least not in the way one would think.

bko 3y ago
These aren't mostly acts of desperation. Those were the cam girls in eastern Europe. This has democratized to middle class American girls. I heard a lot of them speak on Whatever dating podcast. They often leave jobs or college after learning they can earn 5 figures per month on of (of course that's the 0.1% but it lures many more that fail). And men are lurer into unrealistic standards and fake online relationships with call center workers. It's just dishonest So why do they do that? Because society tells them it's liberating. Back to my comment it starts with language. Media reports on it in sanitized terms where you wouldn't know what it even is that's being sold. People self medicare with weed because it's legal and now there's no taboo on using it even in dangerous situations like when you're driving. And since it's legal it's fine to be high all waking hours of the day. I've known people like this and honestly thinks it leads to psychosis People gamble because it's now easier than ever. You can even get lottery tickets from an app, all run by the state with full knowledge it overwhelmingly hits poor people. It's really gross. Did we have to expand to mobile apps for lottery?
gotoeleven 3y ago
Its not clear society can actually function if no one is beholden to any kind of moral judgement in any way. For the slow witted, note that beholden here doesn't have to mean 'coerced under penalty of law' it can simply mean shamed.
- taylodl 3y ago
  Who's to judge and what gives them the authority to judge? We've learned priests adhering to ancient fairy tales don't make for very good judges. Have any other ideas?
  - gspencley 3y ago
    > Who's to judge You are. > what gives them the authority to judge? Reason. You judge according to your hierarchy of values. If you value life, you judge a murderer. If you value individual liberty and agency, you judge a rapist. If you value reason & logic, you judge those who dispense with it.
    - taylodl 3y ago
      These are poor counterexamples as murder and rape are two things universally agreed upon as being bad by all societies. Try something contentious - e.g. homosexuality. Who has the authority to judge that? While morals can be based on analytic philosophy (which I'm personally a fan of) the fact remains that analytic philosophy may still be susceptible to Gödel's incompleteness and moreover, not everybody agrees with this approach.
      - gspencley 3y ago
        You're skirting around the issue. > Try something contentious - e.g. homosexuality. Who has the authority to judge that? Again. YOU do. I'm not saying that I would agree with your individual judgement if you believed that homosexuality was "wrong." But YOU have the individual, personal, moral authority to choose your value system and to judge accordingly. "Judge" is not a dirty word. You judge potential romantic partners when dating. You judge the place you want to work. You judge the types of products that you like to buy. You do all of this according to your personal values and your sense of reason. Law and politics is a completely separate matter from "judging." Law does not exist to enforce some socially agreed upon set of moral values and I think that's what you're getting hung up. There, you and I likely find a lot of agreement. Since politics pertains to how people organize socially, there are a lot of valid questions as to what should or should not be allowed/prohibited by "law." And people will and often do bring morality into that discussion, but fundamentally it's different from "morality" since I can think that, for example, abusing heroin is immoral but still think it should be completely legal. > While morals can be based on analytic philosophy (which I'm personally a fan of) the fact remains that analytic philosophy may still be susceptible to Gödel's incompleteness and moreover, not everybody agrees with this approach. You lost me here. My personal world view is that morality is a requirement of a rational mind. It is a code of values that guides you, the individual, when faced with alternatives. Should I kill the person I don't like or should I try and live in peace with the world? Should I inject heroin tonight or go for a workout? Should I obtain my wealth through fraud and theft or should I try and exchange value for value? I don't subscribe to "universal" or "collective" morality. People may subscribe to similar codes of values, but they do so individually and independently. That doesn't necessarily mean that morality is "subjective". Values are objective in the sense that you can measure their impact on a person's life. But we are all individuals. We need morality individually because we have reason, and therefore our individual code of morality derives from our application of reason (or lack thereof if you, for example, subscribe to the belief that homosexuality is immoral).

nickthegreek 3y ago

Several of my friends are onlyfans models/photographers and their morals are not only intact, but stronger and more thought out than most peoples... especially those who want to talk down to them about their morale failings.

gotoeleven 3y ago
What do you mean their morals are intact and stronger and more thought out? Is there some moral case for prostitution beyond "I like money and dont mind showing my boobs to people" ?