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How did we get here? The normalization of only fans really started with language. Not commenting on whether it's good or bad. First we began calling it sex wor

by bko 3y ago

How did we get here? The normalization of only fans really started with language. Not commenting on whether it's good or bad. First we began calling it sex work and now we use euphemisms like "content creators". We never stop to question whether this is good and just girl boss praise women's "independence" these "creators" got and provide an indifferent shrug to the consumers. We lost our ability to apply any kind of moral judgement (possibly an overcorrection to an overly prude prior generation) You saw the same thing with acceptance of gambling. It's not gambling, it's fantast football. Even the large players still have references to fantasy in their names. Similarly "drugs" became substances. If you were to put someone from 20 years ago today he would be shocked as to how libertine our society has become.

explaininjs 3y ago
“Prostitution is a new phenomenon that people from earlier ages wouldn’t expect to exist today”? Regardless, the article’s case pretty clear if you would read it. Mass job losses and from all the COVID fraud lead to folks getting money however possible. Throw in years of the eduction system telling people a college degree in “whatever you want” is better than tradeschool and that service jobs are the worst thing to possibly end up in, and here we are. People with shattered compasses and mountains of debt trying to make a living in a world that will lie to your face and force you to like it.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  It's not so much that people are told that service jobs are the worst to end up in but that we have made that true. They may be better than literal penury but they are as close to it as can be sustained. No paid time off, no consistent schedule to build a life around, no healthcare, very little dignity. It's no surprise people will seek any alternative and their motivations for doing so are not based on incorrect or fabricated data. Those jobs are truly miserable.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    The bubble here is more of a concrete dome sometimes; I wonder how many people on this forum have ever worked a service job? I have and I literally fear what I would do if I had to go back to the jobs I had while in college (which could happen; I've never felt very secure in any job).
    - taylodl 3y ago
      I've never worked a service job in my life but I know several people who have - including my own children. OMFG!!! It's inhumane how these people are treated. I've seen office equipment treated better than these flesh-and-blood human beings. The only good thing is it gave my kids a good swift kick in the rear end to go to college, not screw around, and get serious with what they were doing. Despite that upside, I wouldn't wish that on anybody!
      - explaininjs 3y ago
        Crazy levels of projection here any time a non-white-collar job is mentioned as being passible. My brother hated college more than life itself. He always looked forward to summers where he’d work service more consistently. Fast-forward, he’s dropped out and now works in food services full time, never been happier.
        giraffe_lady 3y ago
        How's the dental care of your brother's children? When's he thinking he can retire and what will that look like? When was the last time he took a week off? It's not the work itself that is bad but the conditions of it. I loved cooking, I much prefer it to computer work. But allowances for health and family have to be carved out case-by-case depending on your relationship to your bosses. This isn't necessary and we could change it. But we haven't, and so these jobs suck for reasons that have nothing to do with the work being done.
        explaininjs 3y ago
taylodl 3y ago
I'm sorry you hate freedom so much. I'd rather teach people how to consume alcohol responsibly than use the force of law to ban it outright and preach to you that it's for your own good. Ditto for many other vices. We're better off with a citizenry who's been taught self-control than living in a nanny state.
- bko 3y ago
  I'm not calling for outlawing anything. I'm just noticing that it's sad. If you see an inebriated person sleeping on the sidewalk you can think it's sad and not be in favor for his incarceration. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is either allowed or disallowed. You can allow something but think it's unfortunate people choose to do those things.
  - taylodl 3y ago
    That's not how most people are going to read your statement "We lost our ability to apply any kind of moral judgement". You're looking at the world through the lens of moral failings rather than taking the hard look at what drives people to this behavior. Why do people self-medicate? Why are people behaving as though their lives were hopeless and full of despair? Why are so many people wanting to watch the world burn? There are answers to these questions, and it's not moral failings, at least not in the way one would think.
    - bko 3y ago
      These aren't mostly acts of desperation. Those were the cam girls in eastern Europe. This has democratized to middle class American girls. I heard a lot of them speak on Whatever dating podcast. They often leave jobs or college after learning they can earn 5 figures per month on of (of course that's the 0.1% but it lures many more that fail). And men are lurer into unrealistic standards and fake online relationships with call center workers. It's just dishonest So why do they do that? Because society tells them it's liberating. Back to my comment it starts with language. Media reports on it in sanitized terms where you wouldn't know what it even is that's being sold. People self medicare with weed because it's legal and now there's no taboo on using it even in dangerous situations like when you're driving. And since it's legal it's fine to be high all waking hours of the day. I've known people like this and honestly thinks it leads to psychosis People gamble because it's now easier than ever. You can even get lottery tickets from an app, all run by the state with full knowledge it overwhelmingly hits poor people. It's really gross. Did we have to expand to mobile apps for lottery?
tenebrisalietum 3y ago
> We lost our ability to apply any kind of moral judgement Or maybe "we" did apply a judgement and that judgement was "it's OK because of personal/individual freedom and personal/individual responsibility," or "it's OK because humans shouldn't be bred like animals and should be able to enjoy sex simply for pleasure." Also sexually graphic art is not the same as prostitution where an actual sex act between a buyer and seller is involved. Falsely equating these is a bad faith argument.
- bko 3y ago
  Humans shouldnt breed like animals and today we're much more sexually liberated. All positives. So why practically every measure from happiness surveys, anti depressant prescriptions, self harm, etc all point to a deeply unhappy society? Or put it another way, if you think everything is morally equal, would you be happy if your sister was on only fans? How about your daughter? Is this really the most someone can offer to society? Pictures of various body parts and a fake relationship with lonely men? https://www.businessinsider.com/antidepressants-usage-quadrupled-since-1988-2014-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/antidepressants-usage-quadru...
  - tenebrisalietum 3y ago
    > So why practically every measure from happiness surveys, anti depressant prescriptions, self harm, etc all point to a deeply unhappy society? Because we're more broke? > if you think everything is morally equal, I don't. Deriving that from my previous statement is a non-sequitur. > would you be happy if your sister was on only fans? How about your daughter? What if your sister/daughter was forced to have children and be dependent in an abusive relationship? Would you be happy? > Is this really the most someone can offer to society? A) I don't accept that you or I can speak for the entirety of society. You may choose to ignore B because of this statement. B) Society is "owed" what it puts into its people and not much more. Does a society that, for example, doesn't provide childcare, maternal leave, social safety net, deserve one's best? C) This statement assumes that sex degrades oneself; I don't accept that as true nor support any ideology that does.
blurri 3y ago
How did we get here? We're humans. Have you not be following along through out history? You say you're not commenting whether it's good or bad but your whole comment reads as you applying moral judgement.
- bko 3y ago
  I'm saying we should have the concept of moral judgement. Your judgement could apply that of is okay but something else isn't. Or tricking lonely men into thinking they're talking to you is ok, or loot boxes are ok, etc. but we should have those conversations and not pretend just because it's legal (and I believe it should continue to be legal) that something like of is morally equivalent to being an accountant or something

by bko 3y ago

explaininjs 3y ago

“Prostitution is a new phenomenon that people from earlier ages wouldn’t expect to exist today”? Regardless, the article’s case pretty clear if you would read it. Mass job losses and from all the COVID fraud lead to folks getting money however possible. Throw in years of the eduction system telling people a college degree in “whatever you want” is better than tradeschool and that service jobs are the worst thing to possibly end up in, and here we are. People with shattered compasses and mountains of debt trying to make a living in a world that will lie to your face and force you to like it.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
It's not so much that people are told that service jobs are the worst to end up in but that we have made that true. They may be better than literal penury but they are as close to it as can be sustained. No paid time off, no consistent schedule to build a life around, no healthcare, very little dignity. It's no surprise people will seek any alternative and their motivations for doing so are not based on incorrect or fabricated data. Those jobs are truly miserable.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  The bubble here is more of a concrete dome sometimes; I wonder how many people on this forum have ever worked a service job? I have and I literally fear what I would do if I had to go back to the jobs I had while in college (which could happen; I've never felt very secure in any job).
  - taylodl 3y ago
    I've never worked a service job in my life but I know several people who have - including my own children. OMFG!!! It's inhumane how these people are treated. I've seen office equipment treated better than these flesh-and-blood human beings. The only good thing is it gave my kids a good swift kick in the rear end to go to college, not screw around, and get serious with what they were doing. Despite that upside, I wouldn't wish that on anybody!
    - explaininjs 3y ago
      Crazy levels of projection here any time a non-white-collar job is mentioned as being passible. My brother hated college more than life itself. He always looked forward to summers where he’d work service more consistently. Fast-forward, he’s dropped out and now works in food services full time, never been happier.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        How's the dental care of your brother's children? When's he thinking he can retire and what will that look like? When was the last time he took a week off? It's not the work itself that is bad but the conditions of it. I loved cooking, I much prefer it to computer work. But allowances for health and family have to be carved out case-by-case depending on your relationship to your bosses. This isn't necessary and we could change it. But we haven't, and so these jobs suck for reasons that have nothing to do with the work being done.
        explaininjs 3y ago

taylodl 3y ago

I'm sorry you hate freedom so much. I'd rather teach people how to consume alcohol responsibly than use the force of law to ban it outright and preach to you that it's for your own good. Ditto for many other vices. We're better off with a citizenry who's been taught self-control than living in a nanny state.

bko 3y ago
I'm not calling for outlawing anything. I'm just noticing that it's sad. If you see an inebriated person sleeping on the sidewalk you can think it's sad and not be in favor for his incarceration. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is either allowed or disallowed. You can allow something but think it's unfortunate people choose to do those things.
- taylodl 3y ago
  That's not how most people are going to read your statement "We lost our ability to apply any kind of moral judgement". You're looking at the world through the lens of moral failings rather than taking the hard look at what drives people to this behavior. Why do people self-medicate? Why are people behaving as though their lives were hopeless and full of despair? Why are so many people wanting to watch the world burn? There are answers to these questions, and it's not moral failings, at least not in the way one would think.
  - bko 3y ago
    These aren't mostly acts of desperation. Those were the cam girls in eastern Europe. This has democratized to middle class American girls. I heard a lot of them speak on Whatever dating podcast. They often leave jobs or college after learning they can earn 5 figures per month on of (of course that's the 0.1% but it lures many more that fail). And men are lurer into unrealistic standards and fake online relationships with call center workers. It's just dishonest So why do they do that? Because society tells them it's liberating. Back to my comment it starts with language. Media reports on it in sanitized terms where you wouldn't know what it even is that's being sold. People self medicare with weed because it's legal and now there's no taboo on using it even in dangerous situations like when you're driving. And since it's legal it's fine to be high all waking hours of the day. I've known people like this and honestly thinks it leads to psychosis People gamble because it's now easier than ever. You can even get lottery tickets from an app, all run by the state with full knowledge it overwhelmingly hits poor people. It's really gross. Did we have to expand to mobile apps for lottery?

tenebrisalietum 3y ago

> We lost our ability to apply any kind of moral judgement Or maybe "we" did apply a judgement and that judgement was "it's OK because of personal/individual freedom and personal/individual responsibility," or "it's OK because humans shouldn't be bred like animals and should be able to enjoy sex simply for pleasure." Also sexually graphic art is not the same as prostitution where an actual sex act between a buyer and seller is involved. Falsely equating these is a bad faith argument.

bko 3y ago
Humans shouldnt breed like animals and today we're much more sexually liberated. All positives. So why practically every measure from happiness surveys, anti depressant prescriptions, self harm, etc all point to a deeply unhappy society? Or put it another way, if you think everything is morally equal, would you be happy if your sister was on only fans? How about your daughter? Is this really the most someone can offer to society? Pictures of various body parts and a fake relationship with lonely men? https://www.businessinsider.com/antidepressants-usage-quadrupled-since-1988-2014-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/antidepressants-usage-quadru...
- tenebrisalietum 3y ago
  > So why practically every measure from happiness surveys, anti depressant prescriptions, self harm, etc all point to a deeply unhappy society? Because we're more broke? > if you think everything is morally equal, I don't. Deriving that from my previous statement is a non-sequitur. > would you be happy if your sister was on only fans? How about your daughter? What if your sister/daughter was forced to have children and be dependent in an abusive relationship? Would you be happy? > Is this really the most someone can offer to society? A) I don't accept that you or I can speak for the entirety of society. You may choose to ignore B because of this statement. B) Society is "owed" what it puts into its people and not much more. Does a society that, for example, doesn't provide childcare, maternal leave, social safety net, deserve one's best? C) This statement assumes that sex degrades oneself; I don't accept that as true nor support any ideology that does.

blurri 3y ago

How did we get here? We're humans. Have you not be following along through out history? You say you're not commenting whether it's good or bad but your whole comment reads as you applying moral judgement.

bko 3y ago
I'm saying we should have the concept of moral judgement. Your judgement could apply that of is okay but something else isn't. Or tricking lonely men into thinking they're talking to you is ok, or loot boxes are ok, etc. but we should have those conversations and not pretend just because it's legal (and I believe it should continue to be legal) that something like of is morally equivalent to being an accountant or something