3 ms·

>Allowing any application to do that without the user knowing, the X11 model, is a recipe for disaster. I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victi

>Allowing any application to do that without the user knowing, the X11 model, is a recipe for disaster. I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victim to a virus or malware on linux, and I've been using it almost exclusively for the past 20 years. If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. If they wanted to not break existing apps, simply intercept attempts to share screens or inputs, and pop up a dialog box asking the user for consent? That would have been fine. That should have been a part of their default implementation. What they actually wound up doing was infinitely more user hostile. I tried using it summer of '22. The wayland hype train was well underway and major linux distributions were already pushing it. I'd be much more forgiving if the wayland devs said 'hey guys, we're working on a new display server but it's very experimental and no one should use it unless they want to help us work out the kinks'. Instead, it was 'this is the future, x11 is abandonware'

okasaki 3y ago
> I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victim to a virus or malware on linux, and I've been using it almost exclusively for the past 20 years. If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. Yes, well, the ground is being prepared to turn desktop Linux into a Android/Windows like app system (/ wasteland) where users mostly download third party proprietary apps and devs push updates directly to users with minimal oversight. In this brave new world, you will definitely appreciate app isolation.
bonzini 3y ago
> I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victim to a virus or malware on linux, and I've been using it almost exclusively for the past 20 years. If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. Do you think the same would have applied to Android, had it used X11 instead of SurfaceFlinger (which in turn isn't very different from Wayland)? Even if no virus cares about the Linux desktop, that doesn't mean that security issues should be ignored.
vetinari 3y ago
> If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. By the same token, patching the apps to use the new API is not a very big issue either. Or is it? Why? If you have the sources, neither is a problem. If you do not have sources, both are problem. A matter of fact is, that users are going to use apps that they do not have sources for, and can neither audit, nor update the apps. > If they wanted to not break existing apps, simply intercept attempts to share screens or inputs, and pop up a dialog box asking the user for consent? Because there was no API before; there were hacks. Some of them worked only due to circumstances of how the given functionality was implemented, but spec-wise, it wasn't guaranteed at all. Now there are APIs. Just like there is a virtual memory or filesystem permissions. These weren't given years ago either. They also "broke" apps. > major linux distributions were already pushing it. RHEL8 is Wayland-default on non-Nvidia GPUs. Old relase of a freaking RHEL, which itself moves as molases. > I'd be much more forgiving if the wayland devs said 'hey guys, we're working on a new display server but it's very experimental and no one should use it unless they want to help us work out the kinks'. You missed that phase by some 10 years or so. > Instead, it was 'this is the future, x11 is abandonware' That's how it is. If linux wants to stay relevant and not became another Amiga, that's how it is going to be.
orangeboats 3y ago
>I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victim to a virus or malware on linux, and I've been using it almost exclusively for the past 20 years. If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. So: no true Linux user succumbs to malware and no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. Putting that aside, it doesn't take much effort to find an example of X11 keylogger that requires zero superuser privilege and zero explicit permission granting by the user. Here, the first result from DDGing "x11 keylogger": https://github.com/anko/xkbcat https://github.com/anko/xkbcat It is hard to believe this has not occurred in the wild. If such attack really hasn't occurred before in the Linux world, I would rather use the unpopularity of Linux desktop as my justification.

okasaki 3y ago

> I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victim to a virus or malware on linux, and I've been using it almost exclusively for the past 20 years. If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. Yes, well, the ground is being prepared to turn desktop Linux into a Android/Windows like app system (/ wasteland) where users mostly download third party proprietary apps and devs push updates directly to users with minimal oversight. In this brave new world, you will definitely appreciate app isolation.

bonzini 3y ago

> I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victim to a virus or malware on linux, and I've been using it almost exclusively for the past 20 years. If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. Do you think the same would have applied to Android, had it used X11 instead of SurfaceFlinger (which in turn isn't very different from Wayland)? Even if no virus cares about the Linux desktop, that doesn't mean that security issues should be ignored.

vetinari 3y ago

> If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. By the same token, patching the apps to use the new API is not a very big issue either. Or is it? Why? If you have the sources, neither is a problem. If you do not have sources, both are problem. A matter of fact is, that users are going to use apps that they do not have sources for, and can neither audit, nor update the apps. > If they wanted to not break existing apps, simply intercept attempts to share screens or inputs, and pop up a dialog box asking the user for consent? Because there was no API before; there were hacks. Some of them worked only due to circumstances of how the given functionality was implemented, but spec-wise, it wasn't guaranteed at all. Now there are APIs. Just like there is a virtual memory or filesystem permissions. These weren't given years ago either. They also "broke" apps. > major linux distributions were already pushing it. RHEL8 is Wayland-default on non-Nvidia GPUs. Old relase of a freaking RHEL, which itself moves as molases. > I'd be much more forgiving if the wayland devs said 'hey guys, we're working on a new display server but it's very experimental and no one should use it unless they want to help us work out the kinks'. You missed that phase by some 10 years or so. > Instead, it was 'this is the future, x11 is abandonware' That's how it is. If linux wants to stay relevant and not became another Amiga, that's how it is going to be.

orangeboats 3y ago

>I don't know a single person that has ever fallen victim to a virus or malware on linux, and I've been using it almost exclusively for the past 20 years. If it was a threat vector, it clearly wasn't a very big issue. So: no true Linux user succumbs to malware and no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. Putting that aside, it doesn't take much effort to find an example of X11 keylogger that requires zero superuser privilege and zero explicit permission granting by the user. Here, the first result from DDGing "x11 keylogger": https://github.com/anko/xkbcat https://github.com/anko/xkbcat It is hard to believe this has not occurred in the wild. If such attack really hasn't occurred before in the Linux world, I would rather use the unpopularity of Linux desktop as my justification.