7 ms·

The general Linux community is just fine with systemd. It works, and works well. It is only a minority (albeit vocal) of users who are actually upset about syst

by bigstrat2003 3y ago

The general Linux community is just fine with systemd. It works, and works well. It is only a minority (albeit vocal) of users who are actually upset about systemd.

doublerabbit 3y ago
> It works, and works well. Bold statement to make. To say it works well is an overstatement. "It works", yes, it does but I still beg to differ. I've always encountered issues with it. Services failing to shutdown, throwing me timeouts of x/y requiring of attempting z tries. Which as experienced within an install of Ubuntu Server a few days ago; nor have I seen systemd-resolved work either.
- r2_pilot 3y ago
  I've used both systemv and systemd professionally. They both have flaws. I have had fewer issues with systemd(albeit I have a system that rarely doesn't start up its target program after a restart, but it's managed so it's not a problem and just gets a manual start). Individual experiences may vary obviously but overall your comment supports the GP assertion of a vocal minority.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > but overall your comment supports the GP assertion of a vocal minority. So nobody can express their frustrations with it without being written off as just a "vocal minority"? That's pretty sad, in my opinion.
  - doublerabbit 3y ago
    Others may not vocalise the issues, to which I believe happens to more people than those who do vocalise the matter, doesn't mean it's works well. It works at best.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > […] but overall your comment supports the GP assertion of a vocal minority. Is it possible to tell the difference between a demographic minority of people who are (all/largely) vocal, and a demographic majority of which only a small number are vocal?
    - r2_pilot 3y ago
      Generally people like to complain; if everyone says something is bad, usually it is, and if most people aren't complaining, but consistent voices do, then it's an indicator of individual rather than widespread issues.
dsr_ 3y ago
OK. Nevertheless, the point of software freedom is freedom. I'm not upset about systemd as long as I have other choices. It's the tendency of systemd users to say "shut up, you don't count, you're just a minority and you don't have anything real to complain about" and otherwise forcefully evangelize for their favorite paperclip maximizer that irks me.
- __turbobrew__ 3y ago
  Software freedom is the freedom to inspect and modify the source code, not have others develop that code to your personal preference. You are free to fork whatever part of the Linux stack you want and modify it to your liking.
  - dsr_ 3y ago
    I don't need to fork it, we've got lots of nice alternatives, most of which are older and better debugged.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      As someone who used to maintain an init script, ROFL.
      - dsr_ 3y ago
        As someone who writes init scripts and daemontools controllers all the time, I recommend daemontools and similar.
      - Woodi 3y ago
        What's so hard about init scripts ? Since few years peoples are literally demonizing them, ROFL. "Maintaining" that few lines of shell code that start/stop/check some program is incomparable to mainatining source code so can't be serious reason for demanding of removing them from existence. And from that little scripts you literally know everything about starting/stopping managed program. Compare this to systemd undocumented, buggy and not working as expected "configs" :>> Of course it's possible to make mess with scripts. But you can't manage to mess script so badly it becomes so monstrous as systemd :) And you realy can't include so many CVEs as systemd introduced - that brain-dead not-a-init moved init process to ranks of sendmail and bind... Well done ? Works for me ? Minorities only problem ?
mattpallissard 3y ago
Indeed, and many of us who have spent extensive time writing data center automation prefer it to the way things used to be. * Config files and startup behavior are all in the same format; outputters for name daemons, cron jobs, networking, name resolution, NTP, coredumps, mountpoints, and more are all the same. Hand it a data structure with the proper keys and you know it's going to work. * cgroup and namespace configuration are much more fine grained, flexible, and straightforward than docker. Have a weird vendor service that you'd like to restrict or isolate? you can do that. * Process management is mostly a solved problem after years of being ignored by POSIX. * Accounting metrics on memory, tasks, and I/O is for all your services is there * Shipping to syslog is a breeze. Yeah, it's got a learning curve but it's objectively better than a bunch of random init scripts. Which you can still use.
- everforward 3y ago
  I love systemd, I just hate journald. Their built-in pager sucks (text flowing off the screen by default, really?), and logging in binary was a mistake. It doesn't integrate nicely into any of the tools I would normally use. tail in particular is pain in the ass because I have to wait for journalctl to convert the entire log back to text. Logs are text, tools that work on logs expect text, and I don't give a crap that my logs are 50% smaller or whatever. Disk space is absurdly cheap, and logs are a minority of my disk usage. I know it can forward to syslog, but at that point I'd rather just have syslog. systemd is fantastic, though. I've just been building a new system and having to deal with journald is a big pain in the butt.
  - nolist_policy 3y ago
    From the log producing side, journald is much better than log files. No one wants to manually configure log rotation for each daemon individually (What signal does this daemon use to reopen its log file shudder). With systemd you just log to stdout+stderr and are done.
    - throw0101b 3y ago
      > No one wants to manually configure log rotation for each daemon individually (What signal does this daemon use to reopen its log file shudder). I do. I want my (e.g.) auth.log rotated regularly and kept forever. Many other things I only care about (say) 4-6 weeks of retention. (This is in addition to off-host log shipping, which of course journald doesn't do itself so I have to run rsyslog regardlesss.)
Ckirby 3y ago
No we're not, we just don't have the energy or clout to endlessly voice our valid objections I hate systemd so much
- mekster 3y ago
  For what?

The general Linux community is just fine with systemd. It works, and works well. It is only a minority (albeit vocal) of users who are actually upset about systemd.

doublerabbit 3y ago

> It works, and works well. Bold statement to make. To say it works well is an overstatement. "It works", yes, it does but I still beg to differ. I've always encountered issues with it. Services failing to shutdown, throwing me timeouts of x/y requiring of attempting z tries. Which as experienced within an install of Ubuntu Server a few days ago; nor have I seen systemd-resolved work either.

r2_pilot 3y ago
I've used both systemv and systemd professionally. They both have flaws. I have had fewer issues with systemd(albeit I have a system that rarely doesn't start up its target program after a restart, but it's managed so it's not a problem and just gets a manual start). Individual experiences may vary obviously but overall your comment supports the GP assertion of a vocal minority.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > but overall your comment supports the GP assertion of a vocal minority. So nobody can express their frustrations with it without being written off as just a "vocal minority"? That's pretty sad, in my opinion.
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  Others may not vocalise the issues, to which I believe happens to more people than those who do vocalise the matter, doesn't mean it's works well. It works at best.
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > […] but overall your comment supports the GP assertion of a vocal minority. Is it possible to tell the difference between a demographic minority of people who are (all/largely) vocal, and a demographic majority of which only a small number are vocal?
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    Generally people like to complain; if everyone says something is bad, usually it is, and if most people aren't complaining, but consistent voices do, then it's an indicator of individual rather than widespread issues.

dsr_ 3y ago

OK. Nevertheless, the point of software freedom is freedom. I'm not upset about systemd as long as I have other choices. It's the tendency of systemd users to say "shut up, you don't count, you're just a minority and you don't have anything real to complain about" and otherwise forcefully evangelize for their favorite paperclip maximizer that irks me.

__turbobrew__ 3y ago
Software freedom is the freedom to inspect and modify the source code, not have others develop that code to your personal preference. You are free to fork whatever part of the Linux stack you want and modify it to your liking.
- dsr_ 3y ago
  I don't need to fork it, we've got lots of nice alternatives, most of which are older and better debugged.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    As someone who used to maintain an init script, ROFL.
    - dsr_ 3y ago
      As someone who writes init scripts and daemontools controllers all the time, I recommend daemontools and similar.
    - Woodi 3y ago
      What's so hard about init scripts ? Since few years peoples are literally demonizing them, ROFL. "Maintaining" that few lines of shell code that start/stop/check some program is incomparable to mainatining source code so can't be serious reason for demanding of removing them from existence. And from that little scripts you literally know everything about starting/stopping managed program. Compare this to systemd undocumented, buggy and not working as expected "configs" :>> Of course it's possible to make mess with scripts. But you can't manage to mess script so badly it becomes so monstrous as systemd :) And you realy can't include so many CVEs as systemd introduced - that brain-dead not-a-init moved init process to ranks of sendmail and bind... Well done ? Works for me ? Minorities only problem ?

mattpallissard 3y ago

Indeed, and many of us who have spent extensive time writing data center automation prefer it to the way things used to be. * Config files and startup behavior are all in the same format; outputters for name daemons, cron jobs, networking, name resolution, NTP, coredumps, mountpoints, and more are all the same. Hand it a data structure with the proper keys and you know it's going to work. * cgroup and namespace configuration are much more fine grained, flexible, and straightforward than docker. Have a weird vendor service that you'd like to restrict or isolate? you can do that. * Process management is mostly a solved problem after years of being ignored by POSIX. * Accounting metrics on memory, tasks, and I/O is for all your services is there * Shipping to syslog is a breeze. Yeah, it's got a learning curve but it's objectively better than a bunch of random init scripts. Which you can still use.

everforward 3y ago
I love systemd, I just hate journald. Their built-in pager sucks (text flowing off the screen by default, really?), and logging in binary was a mistake. It doesn't integrate nicely into any of the tools I would normally use. tail in particular is pain in the ass because I have to wait for journalctl to convert the entire log back to text. Logs are text, tools that work on logs expect text, and I don't give a crap that my logs are 50% smaller or whatever. Disk space is absurdly cheap, and logs are a minority of my disk usage. I know it can forward to syslog, but at that point I'd rather just have syslog. systemd is fantastic, though. I've just been building a new system and having to deal with journald is a big pain in the butt.
- nolist_policy 3y ago
  From the log producing side, journald is much better than log files. No one wants to manually configure log rotation for each daemon individually (What signal does this daemon use to reopen its log file shudder). With systemd you just log to stdout+stderr and are done.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > No one wants to manually configure log rotation for each daemon individually (What signal does this daemon use to reopen its log file shudder). I do. I want my (e.g.) auth.log rotated regularly and kept forever. Many other things I only care about (say) 4-6 weeks of retention. (This is in addition to off-host log shipping, which of course journald doesn't do itself so I have to run rsyslog regardlesss.)

Ckirby 3y ago

No we're not, we just don't have the energy or clout to endlessly voice our valid objections I hate systemd so much

mekster 3y ago
For what?