4 ms·

A wonderful solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Just ban breeding.

by oatmeal1 3y ago

asylteltine 3y ago
Sorry you don’t like dogs
- NegativeK 3y ago
  I once asked a veterinarian what breed has the lowest medical costs due to congenital defects, and they said chihuahuas. The reason: anesthesia and medications are dosed by weight. They then went on to list the medical issues each breed is susceptible to. It took a while. The article explicitly calls out why this research is helpful: because we, as humans, have bred large dogs to die early as a side effect of their size. It's really hard for me to understand why people are okay paying a dog breeder to perpetuate significant health problems. Plenty of owners are ignorant, but plenty of people fully understand that the Irish Wolfhound that they're going to purchase and grow to love will quite possibly die of old age in seven years, and that paying even a responsible breeder who's trying to minimize this problem will _still_ result in more dogs that die too young purely for our preferences.
  - hobotime 3y ago
    You can side step a lot of nonsense by selecting breeders of hunting dogs. Good health and robustness are key consideration along with sociability.
    - radicaldreamer 3y ago
      Same with herding dogs, many reputable breeders do a lot to prevent health issues like genetic testing, very early training etc.
    - NegativeK 3y ago
      I expected working dogs to actually be largely free of genetic issues, which is why I asked -- but somehow we've _still_ managed to give them a bunch of problems. And that's discounting the fact that most people simply don't have the will or the time to give a working dog the attention and stimulation that it needs to not be a neurotic mess.
  - flir 3y ago
    Logically applies to the small dogs too - they're still going to die, and they're only here because of our preferences. It's about where you, personally, want to draw that line, and different people have different thresholds. (Rabbits and fancy goldfish have similar "live pretty, die young" problems. Probably a whole host of other animals - anything we've bred for shortened heads is likely to have breathing problems - including the Chihuahua).
    - wewtyflakes 3y ago
      How about not breeding dogs to their own detriment? I suspect dogs will have no problems self-selecting mates and having pups.
      - flir 3y ago
        Will there be selection pressure, too? I imagine you'd end up with something a lot like the dingo - a lightweight opportunistic hunter/scavenger.
      - graphe 3y ago
        What about food animals? That's what domestication does.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        >I suspect dogs will have no problems self-selecting mates and having pups. This is a funny thought. I suppose dogs will drive themselves to social events, get jobs, and financially support their offspring.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        Selecting breeding is what made dogs into creatures useful for people somehow, whether for working (herding etc) or as pets. Without breeding, you just get wild animals unsuited for human companionship. However, I still agree with you: I think selective breeding of dogs is wrong. If they don't make good companion animals as they are naturally, then maybe people shouldn't try to turn them into such animals.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
obmelvin 3y ago
I'm pretty sure this targeted at the fact that larger dogs in general live shorter lives than small dogs. I don't think this has anything to do with the genetic issues caused by some breeding.
- medalblue 3y ago
  From the article, "In large- and giant-breed dogs, breeding for size caused these dogs to have highly elevated levels of IGF-1, a hormone that drives cell growth. High IGF-1 effectively drives these dogs to grow large when they’re young, but high IGF-1 levels in adult dogs are believed to accelerate their aging and reduce their healthy lifespan."
  - parineum 3y ago
    What's your point? Are you against that they used deductive reasoning on an existing data set?
- com2kid 3y ago
  Wolves in captivity can live up to 16 years. In the wild, 12 years. One presumes that 11 year old wild wolves don't have the health problems that plague 11 year old large dog breeds. Giant dog breeds humans have made rarely have such long life spans, with dogs like Saint Bernards, Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds living 8 to 10 years. That is living indoors, with access to regular medical checkups, and without parasites. FWIW Wolves are huge, up to 160lb.
  - debacle 3y ago
    The breeding for all dog species is very poor. It is rare to find a breeder that even knows what they're doing let alone one who actually is trying to build a strong breeding stock for the future. Wolves in the wild are lucky to make it to 7 years. A 12 year old wild wolf is exceptionally rare.
    - com2kid 3y ago
com2kid 3y ago
I agree with what I presume your overall premise is, that the breeding standards in the US have traditionally focused on aesthetics over health, and that "award winning show dogs" can have all sorts of horrible health problems that lead to an early, painful death. And then there are puppy mills, which are on the polar opposite of the "fancy breed purity" spectrum, but equally horrific. My overall inclination is pacifism and to focus on loving everyone, but I'd probably be OK with a discreet Tonya Harding'ing to the kneecaps of people running puppy mills. It is sad that a combination of greed and elitism have doomed so many dogs in America to suffering.
- mdekkers 3y ago
  > … "award winning show dogs" can have all sorts of horrible health problems that lead to an early, painful death. There are a few breeds that have serious health problems, but the vast majority don’t. I have an award winning show dog, and he’s strong, healthy, and happy. We are responsible in researching the right pairing for matings. We use pedigree research, DNA tests, and inbreeding coefficient calculators to ensure healthy offspring. Responsible breeders exist, and in fact are a majority.
  - com2kid 3y ago
    > Responsible breeders exist, and in fact are a majority. Are responsible breeders creating the majority of new puppies though? If a random person goes to a random breeder and buys a dog, what are the odds that breeder is ethical and following best practices? I'd bet it is less than 50%. > There are a few breeds that have serious health problems, but the vast majority don’t. My complaint was mostly focused on breeds where the breed standard is by definition unhealthy. > We use pedigree research, DNA tests, and inbreeding coefficient calculators to ensure healthy offspring. And the asshole outside of the city limits breeding puppies in his backyard is doing no such thing, but is still selling "pure bred poodles" that will have horrible behavioral problems and awful health.
    - mdekkers 3y ago
      I apologise for not making it clear enough that I separate “award winning show dog” breeders from “puppy mill” breeders. There is a special place in hell for those that run puppy mills. The same goes for the buyer though. It isn’t hard to figure out if you are buying from a responsible breeder. There is typically a long waiting list (we waited nearly two years for our boy) and there is a long “who are you and can you properly look after a dog” process before you even get on the list. At the end of the day, puppy mills exist because people buy from them. Responsible breeders work hard with the respective breed groups to improve the health standards, and a lot of work is underway to introduce new bloodlines and standards to unhealthy breeds. That is not to say that all breeders are good breeders, or care much about dogs’ health, but there is a definitive push for change going on towards improving the standards.
burnished 3y ago
Ironically the breeding you are complaining about was done long ago as part of the formation of working breeds, and a non-drug intervention to increase life span might instead be breeding them to be smaller.
tlb 3y ago
Wolves and wild dogs are large, by modern dog standards, and don't live very long. Selective breeding created the smaller breeds, which live longer. So maybe you want to ban wild animals instead.
- duskwuff 3y ago
  > Wolves and wild dogs are large, by modern dog standards, and don't live very long. Typical lifespan of a wolf in captivity is ~15 yr (up to 20 in some cases), which is excellent for a "dog" that size.
vlod 3y ago
The parent is getting down-voted but just wanted to point out (the obvious) that there so many rescue dogs available looking for a good home. We picked up our mostly black lab rescue (plus other 'stuff') as a puppy and mostly likely doesn't have some of the health problems that breeds can have. I'm glad that I never went with my initial idea of getting a British bulldog. I see them wheezing and it just makes me sad.
kcb 3y ago
So how exactly do you want dogs to continue? Just wild dogs mating? Would that not just over time result in losing the traits that make dogs desirable companions.
- wewtyflakes 3y ago
  This seems fine.

A wonderful solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Just ban breeding.

asylteltine 3y ago

Sorry you don’t like dogs

NegativeK 3y ago
I once asked a veterinarian what breed has the lowest medical costs due to congenital defects, and they said chihuahuas. The reason: anesthesia and medications are dosed by weight. They then went on to list the medical issues each breed is susceptible to. It took a while. The article explicitly calls out why this research is helpful: because we, as humans, have bred large dogs to die early as a side effect of their size. It's really hard for me to understand why people are okay paying a dog breeder to perpetuate significant health problems. Plenty of owners are ignorant, but plenty of people fully understand that the Irish Wolfhound that they're going to purchase and grow to love will quite possibly die of old age in seven years, and that paying even a responsible breeder who's trying to minimize this problem will _still_ result in more dogs that die too young purely for our preferences.
- hobotime 3y ago
  You can side step a lot of nonsense by selecting breeders of hunting dogs. Good health and robustness are key consideration along with sociability.
  - radicaldreamer 3y ago
    Same with herding dogs, many reputable breeders do a lot to prevent health issues like genetic testing, very early training etc.
  - NegativeK 3y ago
    I expected working dogs to actually be largely free of genetic issues, which is why I asked -- but somehow we've _still_ managed to give them a bunch of problems. And that's discounting the fact that most people simply don't have the will or the time to give a working dog the attention and stimulation that it needs to not be a neurotic mess.
- flir 3y ago
  Logically applies to the small dogs too - they're still going to die, and they're only here because of our preferences. It's about where you, personally, want to draw that line, and different people have different thresholds. (Rabbits and fancy goldfish have similar "live pretty, die young" problems. Probably a whole host of other animals - anything we've bred for shortened heads is likely to have breathing problems - including the Chihuahua).
  - wewtyflakes 3y ago
    How about not breeding dogs to their own detriment? I suspect dogs will have no problems self-selecting mates and having pups.
    - flir 3y ago
      Will there be selection pressure, too? I imagine you'd end up with something a lot like the dingo - a lightweight opportunistic hunter/scavenger.
    - graphe 3y ago
      What about food animals? That's what domestication does.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      >I suspect dogs will have no problems self-selecting mates and having pups. This is a funny thought. I suppose dogs will drive themselves to social events, get jobs, and financially support their offspring.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      Selecting breeding is what made dogs into creatures useful for people somehow, whether for working (herding etc) or as pets. Without breeding, you just get wild animals unsuited for human companionship. However, I still agree with you: I think selective breeding of dogs is wrong. If they don't make good companion animals as they are naturally, then maybe people shouldn't try to turn them into such animals.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

obmelvin 3y ago

I'm pretty sure this targeted at the fact that larger dogs in general live shorter lives than small dogs. I don't think this has anything to do with the genetic issues caused by some breeding.

medalblue 3y ago
From the article, "In large- and giant-breed dogs, breeding for size caused these dogs to have highly elevated levels of IGF-1, a hormone that drives cell growth. High IGF-1 effectively drives these dogs to grow large when they’re young, but high IGF-1 levels in adult dogs are believed to accelerate their aging and reduce their healthy lifespan."
- parineum 3y ago
  What's your point? Are you against that they used deductive reasoning on an existing data set?
com2kid 3y ago
Wolves in captivity can live up to 16 years. In the wild, 12 years. One presumes that 11 year old wild wolves don't have the health problems that plague 11 year old large dog breeds. Giant dog breeds humans have made rarely have such long life spans, with dogs like Saint Bernards, Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds living 8 to 10 years. That is living indoors, with access to regular medical checkups, and without parasites. FWIW Wolves are huge, up to 160lb.
- debacle 3y ago
  The breeding for all dog species is very poor. It is rare to find a breeder that even knows what they're doing let alone one who actually is trying to build a strong breeding stock for the future. Wolves in the wild are lucky to make it to 7 years. A 12 year old wild wolf is exceptionally rare.
  - com2kid 3y ago

com2kid 3y ago

I agree with what I presume your overall premise is, that the breeding standards in the US have traditionally focused on aesthetics over health, and that "award winning show dogs" can have all sorts of horrible health problems that lead to an early, painful death. And then there are puppy mills, which are on the polar opposite of the "fancy breed purity" spectrum, but equally horrific. My overall inclination is pacifism and to focus on loving everyone, but I'd probably be OK with a discreet Tonya Harding'ing to the kneecaps of people running puppy mills. It is sad that a combination of greed and elitism have doomed so many dogs in America to suffering.

mdekkers 3y ago
> … "award winning show dogs" can have all sorts of horrible health problems that lead to an early, painful death. There are a few breeds that have serious health problems, but the vast majority don’t. I have an award winning show dog, and he’s strong, healthy, and happy. We are responsible in researching the right pairing for matings. We use pedigree research, DNA tests, and inbreeding coefficient calculators to ensure healthy offspring. Responsible breeders exist, and in fact are a majority.
- com2kid 3y ago
  > Responsible breeders exist, and in fact are a majority. Are responsible breeders creating the majority of new puppies though? If a random person goes to a random breeder and buys a dog, what are the odds that breeder is ethical and following best practices? I'd bet it is less than 50%. > There are a few breeds that have serious health problems, but the vast majority don’t. My complaint was mostly focused on breeds where the breed standard is by definition unhealthy. > We use pedigree research, DNA tests, and inbreeding coefficient calculators to ensure healthy offspring. And the asshole outside of the city limits breeding puppies in his backyard is doing no such thing, but is still selling "pure bred poodles" that will have horrible behavioral problems and awful health.
  - mdekkers 3y ago
    I apologise for not making it clear enough that I separate “award winning show dog” breeders from “puppy mill” breeders. There is a special place in hell for those that run puppy mills. The same goes for the buyer though. It isn’t hard to figure out if you are buying from a responsible breeder. There is typically a long waiting list (we waited nearly two years for our boy) and there is a long “who are you and can you properly look after a dog” process before you even get on the list. At the end of the day, puppy mills exist because people buy from them. Responsible breeders work hard with the respective breed groups to improve the health standards, and a lot of work is underway to introduce new bloodlines and standards to unhealthy breeds. That is not to say that all breeders are good breeders, or care much about dogs’ health, but there is a definitive push for change going on towards improving the standards.

burnished 3y ago

Ironically the breeding you are complaining about was done long ago as part of the formation of working breeds, and a non-drug intervention to increase life span might instead be breeding them to be smaller.

tlb 3y ago

Wolves and wild dogs are large, by modern dog standards, and don't live very long. Selective breeding created the smaller breeds, which live longer. So maybe you want to ban wild animals instead.

duskwuff 3y ago
> Wolves and wild dogs are large, by modern dog standards, and don't live very long. Typical lifespan of a wolf in captivity is ~15 yr (up to 20 in some cases), which is excellent for a "dog" that size.

vlod 3y ago

The parent is getting down-voted but just wanted to point out (the obvious) that there so many rescue dogs available looking for a good home. We picked up our mostly black lab rescue (plus other 'stuff') as a puppy and mostly likely doesn't have some of the health problems that breeds can have. I'm glad that I never went with my initial idea of getting a British bulldog. I see them wheezing and it just makes me sad.

kcb 3y ago

So how exactly do you want dogs to continue? Just wild dogs mating? Would that not just over time result in losing the traits that make dogs desirable companions.

wewtyflakes 3y ago
This seems fine.