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Note that Fervo Energy (the geothermal start-up that Google partnered with) is founded by an ex oil/gas drilling engineer who decided to take all the lessons le

by auspiv 3y ago

Note that Fervo Energy (the geothermal start-up that Google partnered with) is founded by an ex oil/gas drilling engineer who decided to take all the lessons learned by oil/gas of horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing over the last 20 years and apply to geothermal. Turns out all the assumptions for the economics of geothermal were based on 20+ year old data. With the advances applied from oil/gas, geothermal is squarely back in the economic region of renewables. It took them 72 days to drill their injection well to 11220 ft. 59 days to drill their production well to same depth. So from their 1st well to their 2nd, they've already improved 18%. Oil/gas drillers can do 11220 ft wells within a couple days. Sure 3.5 MW isn't a ton but this was literally a proof of concept. They can expand by orders of magnitude by drilling hundreds of these injector/producer doublets. They could probably get 2-3x more power per well after optimization. They can easily control production by altering the injection rate. I forget the exact delay but basically, if they ramp up/down injection, they see the same exact response on the production side a couple hours later. They expect to be able to combine this with solar/wind to get a firm 24 hour renewable base load. 16 page Fervo white paper with tons of data (pressure, temperatures, geologic setting, frac plans, etc) - https://eartharxiv.org/repository/object/5704/download/11142/ https://eartharxiv.org/repository/object/5704/download/11142... Note that they do monitor induced sesmicity and have green/yellow/red light system for when to stop if necessary. Again, this was for the proof of concept with the Department of Energy. Edit: with the exception of the high temps (376F max recorded), the drilling is all very standard oil/gas style that happens all the time across the US. 376F isn't unheard of in deepwater offshore but it's damn hot.

danpalmer 3y ago
Thank you for this, lots to be optimistic about! Forgive my ignorance, but... > They expect to be able to combine this with solar/wind to get a firm 24 hour renewable base load. Why would they need solar/wind to get a renewable base load? I know solar/wind can't provide that base load by themselves (at least not in one region), but I expected that geothermal would basically be constant, or at least fluctuate by only small percentages throughout a day? Does solar/wind really bring anything to the table in terms of base load here, or is it just that geothermal would provide the base load and solar/wind could be used for seasonal usage on top?
- analyte123 3y ago
  Geothermal heat reservoirs are renewable but not unlimited: heat is taken out of the rock by the working fluid and results in "thermal drawdown" until heat is conducted from adjacent areas. I would assume this is worse for hot dry rock enhanced geothermal systems like this one, where you don't have hydrothermal circulation moving hot water through the reservoir. Just for some graphs: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/888907 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/888907 . So perhaps only running your geothermal plant at night extends the lifespan of your well.
- auspiv 3y ago
  I believe wind/solar are still cheaper than geothermal. They'll be priorities #1 and #2, with geothermal to make up any difference. edit: and when the sun isn't shining and wind isn't blowing
- bluGill 3y ago
  Base load is an obsolete concept that nobody needs at all. It applies to some coal and nuclear power plants that take days to startup and cannot throttle back. You accepted this because they are very cheap to run. Renewables have their issues, but they are different than base load.
  - auspiv 3y ago
    Let me rephrase - 'constant output 24/7/365 renewable power'
  - hcurtiss 3y ago
    Base load is decidedly not an obsolete concept. Renewables go to zero, and building sufficient peaking capacity to overcome a total loss of grid power would be preposterously expensive. Renewables spread over a large enough geography could, hypothetically, overcome variability, but nowhere in the world has developed the grid capacity (or even renewable generation capacity) to substantiate that strategy, and the odds of the US developing that kind of grid capacity are nil. There will always be a need for substantial base load generation.
masterj 3y ago
There is an excellent podcast from David Roberts that dives into Fervo's approach https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally
irq-1 3y ago
The best thing about this technology is all the existing systems. Experienced workforce, an established manufacturing and supply chain, global projects. And it all comes from the oil and gas industry that will decline with green power, so there can be transition instead of a huge disruption.
- adrianmonk 3y ago
  And it's not just the inconvenience of disruption. The reason oil companies are putting up resistance against clean energy isn't that they hate the environment. It's that they love money. They don't want someone to declare their goose's golden eggs obsolete. If someone came along and said "we can teach your golden goose to lay a different type of egg which is also golden", they might get behind that. And they might tell the politicians that they pay for to get behind it too. Transitioning the entire world's energy infrastructure is still going to be very challenging and very expensive, but it would be less difficult if we could at least get all sides to agree that it's something we want to do.
specialist 3y ago
Volts podcast has a terrific interview with Fervo CEO Tim Latimer (and co-author of that paper you linked). Both audio and transcript: "Enhanced geothermal power is finally a reality" [2023-07-21] https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally My key takeaways: Advanced geothermal energy (AGE) completes the puzzle. Wind, solar, others hit 80% of our needs. AGE fulfills the final 20%. Additionally, by serving as heat reservior, AGE will maximize solar and wind. Instead of curtailing, Fervo will store their excess output as heat in the ground. Can be located anywhere there's accessible heat. Even urban areas. Surface level operation is just a well head and a modest building. Scales "horizontally". Meaning just drill more wells. Versus larger or more complex wells. This means Fervo has jumped onto the cost-learning curve (Wright's Law) by doing the same thing repeatedly. Instead of every project being bespoke. All that R&D investment in the much hated fracking industry unlocked this achievement.
jeffbee 3y ago
Why didn't they just get oil guys to drill it?
- specialist 3y ago
  Fervo are oil guys. Their wells have additional features. Like sensor packs every 100m (?).

by auspiv 3y ago

danpalmer 3y ago

Thank you for this, lots to be optimistic about! Forgive my ignorance, but... > They expect to be able to combine this with solar/wind to get a firm 24 hour renewable base load. Why would they need solar/wind to get a renewable base load? I know solar/wind can't provide that base load by themselves (at least not in one region), but I expected that geothermal would basically be constant, or at least fluctuate by only small percentages throughout a day? Does solar/wind really bring anything to the table in terms of base load here, or is it just that geothermal would provide the base load and solar/wind could be used for seasonal usage on top?

analyte123 3y ago
Geothermal heat reservoirs are renewable but not unlimited: heat is taken out of the rock by the working fluid and results in "thermal drawdown" until heat is conducted from adjacent areas. I would assume this is worse for hot dry rock enhanced geothermal systems like this one, where you don't have hydrothermal circulation moving hot water through the reservoir. Just for some graphs: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/888907 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/888907 . So perhaps only running your geothermal plant at night extends the lifespan of your well.
auspiv 3y ago
I believe wind/solar are still cheaper than geothermal. They'll be priorities #1 and #2, with geothermal to make up any difference. edit: and when the sun isn't shining and wind isn't blowing
bluGill 3y ago
Base load is an obsolete concept that nobody needs at all. It applies to some coal and nuclear power plants that take days to startup and cannot throttle back. You accepted this because they are very cheap to run. Renewables have their issues, but they are different than base load.
- auspiv 3y ago
  Let me rephrase - 'constant output 24/7/365 renewable power'
- hcurtiss 3y ago
  Base load is decidedly not an obsolete concept. Renewables go to zero, and building sufficient peaking capacity to overcome a total loss of grid power would be preposterously expensive. Renewables spread over a large enough geography could, hypothetically, overcome variability, but nowhere in the world has developed the grid capacity (or even renewable generation capacity) to substantiate that strategy, and the odds of the US developing that kind of grid capacity are nil. There will always be a need for substantial base load generation.

masterj 3y ago

There is an excellent podcast from David Roberts that dives into Fervo's approach https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally

irq-1 3y ago

The best thing about this technology is all the existing systems. Experienced workforce, an established manufacturing and supply chain, global projects. And it all comes from the oil and gas industry that will decline with green power, so there can be transition instead of a huge disruption.

adrianmonk 3y ago
And it's not just the inconvenience of disruption. The reason oil companies are putting up resistance against clean energy isn't that they hate the environment. It's that they love money. They don't want someone to declare their goose's golden eggs obsolete. If someone came along and said "we can teach your golden goose to lay a different type of egg which is also golden", they might get behind that. And they might tell the politicians that they pay for to get behind it too. Transitioning the entire world's energy infrastructure is still going to be very challenging and very expensive, but it would be less difficult if we could at least get all sides to agree that it's something we want to do.

specialist 3y ago

Volts podcast has a terrific interview with Fervo CEO Tim Latimer (and co-author of that paper you linked). Both audio and transcript: "Enhanced geothermal power is finally a reality" [2023-07-21] https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally https://www.volts.wtf/p/enhanced-geothermal-power-is-finally My key takeaways: Advanced geothermal energy (AGE) completes the puzzle. Wind, solar, others hit 80% of our needs. AGE fulfills the final 20%. Additionally, by serving as heat reservior, AGE will maximize solar and wind. Instead of curtailing, Fervo will store their excess output as heat in the ground. Can be located anywhere there's accessible heat. Even urban areas. Surface level operation is just a well head and a modest building. Scales "horizontally". Meaning just drill more wells. Versus larger or more complex wells. This means Fervo has jumped onto the cost-learning curve (Wright's Law) by doing the same thing repeatedly. Instead of every project being bespoke. All that R&D investment in the much hated fracking industry unlocked this achievement.

jeffbee 3y ago

Why didn't they just get oil guys to drill it?

specialist 3y ago
Fervo are oil guys. Their wells have additional features. Like sensor packs every 100m (?).