5 ms·

Weird to read a post here from a foreign newspaper trying to describe what happened in my own country. But largely it's true, many people are unhappy with the a

Weird to read a post here from a foreign newspaper trying to describe what happened in my own country. But largely it's true, many people are unhappy with the amount of migration, the housing crisis, the rising cost of living and also what they feel is too much environmentalism. They feel that the parties that were in the government during the last 10 years did not take their concerns seriously or even made them worse. Whether the PVV can turn things in their favor is questionable, it's easy to shout things from the sideline but many of the current problems are still there because they are inherently difficult to solve. For instance, PVV proposes to stop all immigration. Apart from the economic problems that this might cause, it is simply not possible due to EU legislation. For which he has a solution as well; NL should step out of the EU. Being primarily an export country, the consequences would be disastrous for the Netherlands. The housing crisis is another example of an ongoing problem. A major cause is the fact that NL is a very crowded country, it's just very difficult to find any fee space to build on. What makes this even more difficult is certain environmental regulation that forbids any project that increases nitrogen deposition. Again this regulation comes from the EU so NL can't just change it.

newyankee 3y ago
Canada is not at all a crowded country, yet it has housing crisis. At least Netherlands had the foresight to create dense, urban spaces with cycling infrastructure and half decent public transit. All they need to do now is replicate this. The thing about environmental concerns is that the nos should be balanced with human quality of life, and in that lens the Dutch way really works better than many other developed countries.
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  As is with Canada, the problem is always investors. Canada's housing crisis stemmed from a lot of outside money buying up property simply to sit on it and leave it empty/unused, and in the Netherlands you see similar trends along with investors buying up property the moment it appears. Additionally, any bans on things like Airbnb gets overruled by the court system. These are all things that lower taxes and kicking out foreigners can't solve, because that just opens up more property for investors to swoop in and buy. You stop investors from speculating on property and make it illegal for property to go unused and you solve a good chunk of the issue right there.
  - Bostonian 3y ago
    Real estate investors expect to earn income from the properties they buy, and thus try to rent them out, especially when interest rates are above zero as they are now. Often the financial plan assumes that rental income will be used to pay the mortgage, property taxes, and other costs.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      I assume the OP is referring to (largely Chinese) real estate buyers, where the goal isn't so much earning a return, but instead finding a safe place to stash money. I know this was reported as a problem in Vancouver, BC, but I'm unconvinced it's a true problem outside of hyper-local areas. I've also seen the same argument about luxury flats in London (mostly Middle Eastern buyers here). And of course, the reporting always calls out the non-native buyers, largely ignoring that wealthy Americans, Canadians, and Brits also own multiple homes spanning many nations, and can't inhabit them all at the same time.
      - theironhammer 3y ago
        They built loads of condos in Vancouver which were only advertised for sale overseas in Asia. Residents in Canada weren't given a chance to purchase. 40% of Canadian Federal MPs are landlords.
  - gruez 3y ago
    >Canada's housing crisis stemmed from a lot of outside money buying up property simply to sit on it and leave it empty/unused Is canada's vacancy rate significantly higher than other developed countries?
- doublespanner 3y ago
  The way a country gets crowded has less to do with the actual land, and more to do with the rate of growth and investment in infrastructure. The Netherlands had a similar population to Canada in 1950, but today's population is dramatically smaller. Combine that with a historical higher tax rate and investment in infrastructure, this is not something that can be replicated...
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  British Colombia has the same problem as California in that it is a lot of land but most of it is uninhabitable.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Or, also like California, there are places where land is pretty inexpensive but they are less desirable for various reasons and there isn't a lot of local employment available. (Yes, a fair bit of land is mountainous but there's also a fair bit of habitable but undeveloped/lightly developed land.)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  Canada and Australia are both facing a housing crisis, and that's mostly due to the fact that the country is huge, but the actually livable parts of the country are fairly small. Then add in the standard Anglo Neoliberalism and surprise surprise big money controls what little habitable space is available. I've lived in both and worked outside in -40C and +40C, and both are rough. I'd rather be in Virginia and 4 actual seasons. Or San Diego, where there is just one.
  - skissane 3y ago
    > Canada and Australia are both facing a housing crisis, and that's mostly due to the fact that the country is huge, but the actually livable parts of the country are fairly small. I can’t speak for Canada, but in the case of Australia - there are heaps of small towns in Australia with affordable housing, it is just few people want to live in them. The median house price in Hay, NSW, is only AU$237K (US$157K). Hay is “liveable” - its climate is mild (mean min is 10 deg C, mean max is 24.3 deg C, 368.3 mm annual rainfall). It is on a major river. But, who wants to live in a town of 2500 people which is 5 hours drive from the nearest major city?
ChatGTP 3y ago
PVV proposes to stop all immigration Is there a documented case in history where this has been beneficial ? Not attacking you btw, I'm actually wondering if anyone has known this to be effective? Immigrants seem like a token thing to get angry about when the chips are down and the country is mismanaged.
- 5437553 3y ago
  [flagged]
- selfmodruntime 3y ago
  Poland. > Immigrants seem like a token thing to get angry about when the chips are down and the country is mismanaged. This has been the primary opinion of center to leftleaning parties for a decade now. There are very real problems with immigration, even more so if a large part of immigration consists of migrations of cultures that are incompatible with western ideas.
  - timeon 3y ago
    In many EU countries one of largest immigrant group is from Poland.
  - bitsage 3y ago
    Poland has actually let in a record amount of migrants, particularly from non-EU countries.[1] Turns out their tough stance was a bunch of posturing and politicking. Perhaps the money they make from selling visas under the table trumps the solidarity payments. [1] https://apnews.com/article/poland-government-admit-muslim-migrants-c4aa78f8e150737e40e9644183aafee3 https://apnews.com/article/poland-government-admit-muslim-mi...
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    > Poland. Poland never stopped immigration. In fact, it received roughly double the amount of immigrants in 2021 im comparison to 2 decades prior. https://www.statista.com/statistics/957100/poland-immigration/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/957100/poland-immigratio...
5437553 3y ago
[flagged]
selfmodruntime 3y ago
> part from the economic problems that this might cause, it is simply not possible due to EU legislation This is definitely untrue as countries like Poland show well enough. You do not need to stick to every EU rule, you just need to be well off enough to pay off your fines.
longdudefromnl 3y ago
Quote: Again this regulation comes from the EU so NL can't just change it This is -I think- (one of) the main reasons people voted PVV. We (the Dutch people) can't even make their own decisions! And when things fall apart (and they are: housing, inflation, too much environmentalism, declining healthcare, etc) this is exactly what we need: make decisions to fix this. But we 'can't' because of EU. This is extremely angering and fueled the rise of PVV. And don't get me wrong: I'm one of them. And no, I'm not 'far right'. I just want to fix things. If you can't take care of yourself, you can't help others.
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  I would hope people would look at Brexit as a model of how well that line of thought works. Especially as we're seeing how ugly the downstream effects are years afterwards.
  - FooBarWidget 3y ago
    What are the British population's attitude towards this post-Brexit reality now? Has anyone reflected on it?
    - cjrp 3y ago
      Probably a 48%/52% split between "this is exactly what we said would happen" and "we've been hamstrung by leaders not negotiating a good deal"
    - fzeroracer 3y ago
      Generally speaking, bad. Polls indicate that favorability for Brexit is probably around 35% or lower. It's been getting worse because a lot of the current crisis's the UK faces are the direct result of Brexit. Because a lot of things they took for granted in regards to stuff like the food chain or energy negotiations is something that directly impacts an individual's day to day life.
      - Anon826 3y ago
pelasaco 3y ago
> Again this regulation comes from the EU so NL can't just change it I agree with you, even worse is when some mayor candidate comes with that and we all know that in the city level, youhave almost no change to influence such decisions. However EU, has nothing set in stone and it is democratic. NL don't have to leave EU, but join the (increasing) block doing lobby to change those rules.
nprateem 3y ago
Liberals in general branded anyone with any concerns about immigration as racist. This let the right-wingers control the debate and play on peoples' fears. The results were Brexit, Trump and now this guy.
akudha 3y ago
We see this in many democracies. On one side, we have a feel good but do-nothing-useful group of politicians. On the other side, we have hate spewing politicians. At some point, people get tired of voting for do-nothing crowd and vote for the shitty crowd, it usually makes things worse. There is a burning building. One group just stands there taking pictures. Another group tosses gasoline into the fire. These are the two choices voters have…
petre 3y ago
> Apart from the economic problems that this might cause, it is simply not possible due to EU legislation. It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter. Do you wonder why the migrants don't stay in Eastern Europe? Because here we offer accomodation in tents. There isn't enough social housing for citizens (largely Roma), let alone migrants. We have friends and neighbours from Germany who want retire early and to move back to Eastern Europe because they are unhappy with the federal government taxing them nearly ~500€ in order to house and feed migrants. These neighbours are working class people of retirement age, who left to Germany during the communist regime, leaving everything behind. There they were housed in a Lager common social housing with shared toilets and showers and they had to work to support themselves. Now they see how migrants are treated and view them as freeloaders. The fact that they're muslim and also cause problems doesn't help either. So I'm not at all surprised the Dutch voted with Wilders.
- 66fm472tjy7 3y ago
  > It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter In the EU you would have to reduce your welfare state to that level for your own citizens as well. The ECJ says[0]: > It follows that the level of social security benefits paid to refugees by the Member State which granted that status, whether temporary or permanent, must be the same as that offered to nationals of that Member State [0] https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=212714&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=3140129 https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&do...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - petre 3y ago
    Then maybe refuse to register them, like the Hungarian authorities do? Understaff and reduce migrant registration offices to a bare minimum like the French are doing with immigration offices. Hungary and Poland have repeatedly boycotted and vetoed the EU's migration policies. If this gets support from a country like NL, there is hope to change the EU's ill suited Merkel/Juncker policies on migration. The alternative is right wing populists like Wilders winning elections in more EU states. Consider LePen's FN winning the French elections for instance. In the German government there is already consensus on a stricter migration policy in order to stem support for the far right. Russia is also using migrants to put pressure on Polish, the Baltics' and Finnish borders. We shouldn't allow this.
PaulHoule 3y ago
I think Wilders is pretty well known in the anglosphere, or at least I've been following him for a very long time. (Long before I got a job related to political science where I can listen to the 538 podcast and claim it is work related.) On the other hand, I've been a fan of the Netherlands too.
CalRobert 3y ago
I'm a recent immigrant to NL but one kind of surprising thing is how low density a lot of the cities are. Look around Hilversum, Houten, etc. (random examples I'm familiar with) and it's mostly rowhouses. It seems like there should be an opportunity to replace a lot of these with something like the 4-5 story buildings you see in Paris, for instance. Also, quite a few cars (and big SUV's, and even quite a few full-size American pickup trucks, bafflingly). Biking to school with my kids is frustrating and sometimes feels dangerous. Though maybe that's just Hilversum. They seem really eager to rely on supposed woonerfs instead of actually providing separated infrastructure. I feel like "I generally favour immigration but understand that having a substantial influx of a population that does not integrate well, regardless of their background" is a hard stance to take. I don't really align with any party so far as I can tell (not that it matters, I can't vote). I'm originally American and if there were large groups of people moving here from Texas, not learning Dutch, and bringing Texan values I'd be pretty worried.
- misja111 3y ago
  In Hilversum you will see a lot more big SUV's than in a typical Dutch city, the area ('Gooi') is considered quite posh in the Netherlands. Yes there definitely are possibilities to make more out the existing urban area's. But wherever someone has an idea for building more houses, there always are others that are against it. In your case, building 4-5 story buildings would be seen by some as disturbing the skyline of the city. They'd rather keep their current small city atmosphere.
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    Funny enough the rowhouses on my street are all 3 stories...
- pelasaco 3y ago
  > I'm originally American and if there were large groups of people moving here from Texas, not learning Dutch, and bringing Texan values I'd be pretty worried. Sure just replace the rowhouses with skyscrapers and burn the cars.. looking the results of the last elections sounds like your Californian and not Texan values are what worries the Dutch people.. unbelievable
28304283409234 3y ago
I love the framing 'environmentalism'. Nature is dying and we're stuck on blaming the messenger. I wheep for our children.
throaway-1931 3y ago
[dead]
- misja111 3y ago
  > The "regulation that comes from the EU" was redacted and implemented by the Dutch government This is partially true. The directive of the regulation came from the EU, the concrete implementation from NL. And at that point it was not clear to anybody that nitrogen deposit restriction would be such an important part of it. But, in that way, the Dutch are responsible for the problems that this regulation currently causes. However, if it would have been purely a Dutch regulation, the Dutch could simply amend it or drop it altogether. Since the regulation comes from the EU, this is not an option. > ... the nitrogen limitation was introduced in the Dutch implementation of the directive and it's not present in the regulation of most of the other countries. The nitrogen limitation was not specifically mentioned in the initial Dutch implementation, nor was it in the EU directive. It followed from the principle in the EU directive; that nature in the Natura 2000 area's is not allowed to deteriorate. The reason it is on the Dutch agenda at all, is that Dutch environmental organisations realized that nitrogen was a threat and even took the Dutch government to court to act on it. > How the housing crisis relates (in a tiny part), with this specific environmental regulation ... When the Dutch government lost the case about handling nitrogen in 2019, 18000 building projects had to be halted. That's no tiny part.
  - throaway-1931 3y ago
    > Since the regulation comes from the EU, this is not an option You are right in that they cannot drop it, but they can amend it. The issue is that if they want to drop the nitrogen requirement they would have to come with scientific arguments on how the nitrogen limits doesn't hurt the protected areas, or alternative means to protect those areas from the nitrogen. > The reason it is on the Dutch agenda at all, is that Dutch environmental organisations realized that nitrogen was a threat and even took the Dutch government to court to act on it I fully agree with your point > 18000 building projects had to be halted. That's no tiny part I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my comment, it's definitively not a tiny part of the total building projects (for context, currently in NL there are like 75k ongoing), but of the housing crisis as a whole. In my opinion there are many issues with housing in this country. ie. Empty houses due to investors not wanting to rent, cultural tendency for low population density projects, lack of labor, massive (badly implemented) intervention from the government, etc.
wappieslurkz 3y ago
Frankly I'm afraid most people voting for those fascist parties (and other right wing parties) had no clue what they were actually voting for. Populism works really well, sadly. I think it's time for a populist progressive left wing party in The Netherlands as a counterweight to the havoc the parties on the right are causing.

newyankee 3y ago

Canada is not at all a crowded country, yet it has housing crisis. At least Netherlands had the foresight to create dense, urban spaces with cycling infrastructure and half decent public transit. All they need to do now is replicate this. The thing about environmental concerns is that the nos should be balanced with human quality of life, and in that lens the Dutch way really works better than many other developed countries.

fzeroracer 3y ago
As is with Canada, the problem is always investors. Canada's housing crisis stemmed from a lot of outside money buying up property simply to sit on it and leave it empty/unused, and in the Netherlands you see similar trends along with investors buying up property the moment it appears. Additionally, any bans on things like Airbnb gets overruled by the court system. These are all things that lower taxes and kicking out foreigners can't solve, because that just opens up more property for investors to swoop in and buy. You stop investors from speculating on property and make it illegal for property to go unused and you solve a good chunk of the issue right there.
- Bostonian 3y ago
  Real estate investors expect to earn income from the properties they buy, and thus try to rent them out, especially when interest rates are above zero as they are now. Often the financial plan assumes that rental income will be used to pay the mortgage, property taxes, and other costs.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    I assume the OP is referring to (largely Chinese) real estate buyers, where the goal isn't so much earning a return, but instead finding a safe place to stash money. I know this was reported as a problem in Vancouver, BC, but I'm unconvinced it's a true problem outside of hyper-local areas. I've also seen the same argument about luxury flats in London (mostly Middle Eastern buyers here). And of course, the reporting always calls out the non-native buyers, largely ignoring that wealthy Americans, Canadians, and Brits also own multiple homes spanning many nations, and can't inhabit them all at the same time.
    - theironhammer 3y ago
      They built loads of condos in Vancouver which were only advertised for sale overseas in Asia. Residents in Canada weren't given a chance to purchase. 40% of Canadian Federal MPs are landlords.
- gruez 3y ago
  >Canada's housing crisis stemmed from a lot of outside money buying up property simply to sit on it and leave it empty/unused Is canada's vacancy rate significantly higher than other developed countries?
doublespanner 3y ago
The way a country gets crowded has less to do with the actual land, and more to do with the rate of growth and investment in infrastructure. The Netherlands had a similar population to Canada in 1950, but today's population is dramatically smaller. Combine that with a historical higher tax rate and investment in infrastructure, this is not something that can be replicated...
PaulHoule 3y ago
British Colombia has the same problem as California in that it is a lot of land but most of it is uninhabitable.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Or, also like California, there are places where land is pretty inexpensive but they are less desirable for various reasons and there isn't a lot of local employment available. (Yes, a fair bit of land is mountainous but there's also a fair bit of habitable but undeveloped/lightly developed land.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
red-iron-pine 3y ago
Canada and Australia are both facing a housing crisis, and that's mostly due to the fact that the country is huge, but the actually livable parts of the country are fairly small. Then add in the standard Anglo Neoliberalism and surprise surprise big money controls what little habitable space is available. I've lived in both and worked outside in -40C and +40C, and both are rough. I'd rather be in Virginia and 4 actual seasons. Or San Diego, where there is just one.
- skissane 3y ago
  > Canada and Australia are both facing a housing crisis, and that's mostly due to the fact that the country is huge, but the actually livable parts of the country are fairly small. I can’t speak for Canada, but in the case of Australia - there are heaps of small towns in Australia with affordable housing, it is just few people want to live in them. The median house price in Hay, NSW, is only AU$237K (US$157K). Hay is “liveable” - its climate is mild (mean min is 10 deg C, mean max is 24.3 deg C, 368.3 mm annual rainfall). It is on a major river. But, who wants to live in a town of 2500 people which is 5 hours drive from the nearest major city?

ChatGTP 3y ago

PVV proposes to stop all immigration Is there a documented case in history where this has been beneficial ? Not attacking you btw, I'm actually wondering if anyone has known this to be effective? Immigrants seem like a token thing to get angry about when the chips are down and the country is mismanaged.

5437553 3y ago
[flagged]
selfmodruntime 3y ago
Poland. > Immigrants seem like a token thing to get angry about when the chips are down and the country is mismanaged. This has been the primary opinion of center to leftleaning parties for a decade now. There are very real problems with immigration, even more so if a large part of immigration consists of migrations of cultures that are incompatible with western ideas.
- timeon 3y ago
  In many EU countries one of largest immigrant group is from Poland.
- bitsage 3y ago
  Poland has actually let in a record amount of migrants, particularly from non-EU countries.[1] Turns out their tough stance was a bunch of posturing and politicking. Perhaps the money they make from selling visas under the table trumps the solidarity payments. [1] https://apnews.com/article/poland-government-admit-muslim-migrants-c4aa78f8e150737e40e9644183aafee3 https://apnews.com/article/poland-government-admit-muslim-mi...
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  > Poland. Poland never stopped immigration. In fact, it received roughly double the amount of immigrants in 2021 im comparison to 2 decades prior. https://www.statista.com/statistics/957100/poland-immigration/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/957100/poland-immigratio...

5437553 3y ago

[flagged]

selfmodruntime 3y ago

> part from the economic problems that this might cause, it is simply not possible due to EU legislation This is definitely untrue as countries like Poland show well enough. You do not need to stick to every EU rule, you just need to be well off enough to pay off your fines.

longdudefromnl 3y ago

Quote: Again this regulation comes from the EU so NL can't just change it This is -I think- (one of) the main reasons people voted PVV. We (the Dutch people) can't even make their own decisions! And when things fall apart (and they are: housing, inflation, too much environmentalism, declining healthcare, etc) this is exactly what we need: make decisions to fix this. But we 'can't' because of EU. This is extremely angering and fueled the rise of PVV. And don't get me wrong: I'm one of them. And no, I'm not 'far right'. I just want to fix things. If you can't take care of yourself, you can't help others.

fzeroracer 3y ago
I would hope people would look at Brexit as a model of how well that line of thought works. Especially as we're seeing how ugly the downstream effects are years afterwards.
- FooBarWidget 3y ago
  What are the British population's attitude towards this post-Brexit reality now? Has anyone reflected on it?
  - cjrp 3y ago
    Probably a 48%/52% split between "this is exactly what we said would happen" and "we've been hamstrung by leaders not negotiating a good deal"
  - fzeroracer 3y ago
    Generally speaking, bad. Polls indicate that favorability for Brexit is probably around 35% or lower. It's been getting worse because a lot of the current crisis's the UK faces are the direct result of Brexit. Because a lot of things they took for granted in regards to stuff like the food chain or energy negotiations is something that directly impacts an individual's day to day life.
    - Anon826 3y ago

pelasaco 3y ago

> Again this regulation comes from the EU so NL can't just change it I agree with you, even worse is when some mayor candidate comes with that and we all know that in the city level, youhave almost no change to influence such decisions. However EU, has nothing set in stone and it is democratic. NL don't have to leave EU, but join the (increasing) block doing lobby to change those rules.

nprateem 3y ago

Liberals in general branded anyone with any concerns about immigration as racist. This let the right-wingers control the debate and play on peoples' fears. The results were Brexit, Trump and now this guy.

akudha 3y ago

We see this in many democracies. On one side, we have a feel good but do-nothing-useful group of politicians. On the other side, we have hate spewing politicians. At some point, people get tired of voting for do-nothing crowd and vote for the shitty crowd, it usually makes things worse. There is a burning building. One group just stands there taking pictures. Another group tosses gasoline into the fire. These are the two choices voters have…

petre 3y ago

> Apart from the economic problems that this might cause, it is simply not possible due to EU legislation. It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter. Do you wonder why the migrants don't stay in Eastern Europe? Because here we offer accomodation in tents. There isn't enough social housing for citizens (largely Roma), let alone migrants. We have friends and neighbours from Germany who want retire early and to move back to Eastern Europe because they are unhappy with the federal government taxing them nearly ~500€ in order to house and feed migrants. These neighbours are working class people of retirement age, who left to Germany during the communist regime, leaving everything behind. There they were housed in a Lager common social housing with shared toilets and showers and they had to work to support themselves. Now they see how migrants are treated and view them as freeloaders. The fact that they're muslim and also cause problems doesn't help either. So I'm not at all surprised the Dutch voted with Wilders.

66fm472tjy7 3y ago
> It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter In the EU you would have to reduce your welfare state to that level for your own citizens as well. The ECJ says[0]: > It follows that the level of social security benefits paid to refugees by the Member State which granted that status, whether temporary or permanent, must be the same as that offered to nationals of that Member State [0] https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=212714&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=3140129 https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&do...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- petre 3y ago
  Then maybe refuse to register them, like the Hungarian authorities do? Understaff and reduce migrant registration offices to a bare minimum like the French are doing with immigration offices. Hungary and Poland have repeatedly boycotted and vetoed the EU's migration policies. If this gets support from a country like NL, there is hope to change the EU's ill suited Merkel/Juncker policies on migration. The alternative is right wing populists like Wilders winning elections in more EU states. Consider LePen's FN winning the French elections for instance. In the German government there is already consensus on a stricter migration policy in order to stem support for the far right. Russia is also using migrants to put pressure on Polish, the Baltics' and Finnish borders. We shouldn't allow this.

PaulHoule 3y ago

I think Wilders is pretty well known in the anglosphere, or at least I've been following him for a very long time. (Long before I got a job related to political science where I can listen to the 538 podcast and claim it is work related.) On the other hand, I've been a fan of the Netherlands too.

CalRobert 3y ago

I'm a recent immigrant to NL but one kind of surprising thing is how low density a lot of the cities are. Look around Hilversum, Houten, etc. (random examples I'm familiar with) and it's mostly rowhouses. It seems like there should be an opportunity to replace a lot of these with something like the 4-5 story buildings you see in Paris, for instance. Also, quite a few cars (and big SUV's, and even quite a few full-size American pickup trucks, bafflingly). Biking to school with my kids is frustrating and sometimes feels dangerous. Though maybe that's just Hilversum. They seem really eager to rely on supposed woonerfs instead of actually providing separated infrastructure. I feel like "I generally favour immigration but understand that having a substantial influx of a population that does not integrate well, regardless of their background" is a hard stance to take. I don't really align with any party so far as I can tell (not that it matters, I can't vote). I'm originally American and if there were large groups of people moving here from Texas, not learning Dutch, and bringing Texan values I'd be pretty worried.

misja111 3y ago
In Hilversum you will see a lot more big SUV's than in a typical Dutch city, the area ('Gooi') is considered quite posh in the Netherlands. Yes there definitely are possibilities to make more out the existing urban area's. But wherever someone has an idea for building more houses, there always are others that are against it. In your case, building 4-5 story buildings would be seen by some as disturbing the skyline of the city. They'd rather keep their current small city atmosphere.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Funny enough the rowhouses on my street are all 3 stories...
pelasaco 3y ago
> I'm originally American and if there were large groups of people moving here from Texas, not learning Dutch, and bringing Texan values I'd be pretty worried. Sure just replace the rowhouses with skyscrapers and burn the cars.. looking the results of the last elections sounds like your Californian and not Texan values are what worries the Dutch people.. unbelievable

28304283409234 3y ago

I love the framing 'environmentalism'. Nature is dying and we're stuck on blaming the messenger. I wheep for our children.

throaway-1931 3y ago

[dead]

misja111 3y ago
> The "regulation that comes from the EU" was redacted and implemented by the Dutch government This is partially true. The directive of the regulation came from the EU, the concrete implementation from NL. And at that point it was not clear to anybody that nitrogen deposit restriction would be such an important part of it. But, in that way, the Dutch are responsible for the problems that this regulation currently causes. However, if it would have been purely a Dutch regulation, the Dutch could simply amend it or drop it altogether. Since the regulation comes from the EU, this is not an option. > ... the nitrogen limitation was introduced in the Dutch implementation of the directive and it's not present in the regulation of most of the other countries. The nitrogen limitation was not specifically mentioned in the initial Dutch implementation, nor was it in the EU directive. It followed from the principle in the EU directive; that nature in the Natura 2000 area's is not allowed to deteriorate. The reason it is on the Dutch agenda at all, is that Dutch environmental organisations realized that nitrogen was a threat and even took the Dutch government to court to act on it. > How the housing crisis relates (in a tiny part), with this specific environmental regulation ... When the Dutch government lost the case about handling nitrogen in 2019, 18000 building projects had to be halted. That's no tiny part.
- throaway-1931 3y ago
  > Since the regulation comes from the EU, this is not an option You are right in that they cannot drop it, but they can amend it. The issue is that if they want to drop the nitrogen requirement they would have to come with scientific arguments on how the nitrogen limits doesn't hurt the protected areas, or alternative means to protect those areas from the nitrogen. > The reason it is on the Dutch agenda at all, is that Dutch environmental organisations realized that nitrogen was a threat and even took the Dutch government to court to act on it I fully agree with your point > 18000 building projects had to be halted. That's no tiny part I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my comment, it's definitively not a tiny part of the total building projects (for context, currently in NL there are like 75k ongoing), but of the housing crisis as a whole. In my opinion there are many issues with housing in this country. ie. Empty houses due to investors not wanting to rent, cultural tendency for low population density projects, lack of labor, massive (badly implemented) intervention from the government, etc.

wappieslurkz 3y ago

Frankly I'm afraid most people voting for those fascist parties (and other right wing parties) had no clue what they were actually voting for. Populism works really well, sadly. I think it's time for a populist progressive left wing party in The Netherlands as a counterweight to the havoc the parties on the right are causing.