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As a paying Kagi user, please don't waste my money on this when Firefox already exists.

ploum 3y ago
I’m also a paying user (and a fan) of Kagi. I’m still confused by the strategy. If you are not Google and trying to have an hegemony on the web, there’s no obvious link between a browser and a search engine. I don’t see the point from a business perspective. It sends a strange signal to users "Hey, by the way, we are reinventing the wheel and making also a browser that works only on some operating systems". It’s a bit like going for groceries and then your merchant told you all the time "By the way, I’m selling this car prototype. It makes sense! You have to take your car anyway to comes shopping for groceries so why not buying the one from us?". But I’m a cyclist…
- Closi 3y ago
  100%! There is more than enough to work on in the search engine space without getting distracted by other red oceans. Is it just that the search engine doesn't make enough space or they are finding it isn't sticky enough, so need to add more services to justify the price? (e.g. email...)
- Ayesh 3y ago
  > going for groceries... I really this analogy. It feels weird especially when Google and Brave both have their own browser and ad programs, so it's in Kagi's favor to stay as far as possible from inventing their own browser.
- freediver 3y ago
  Comment above address a part of the question https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 Second part of the answer to your question is that you can not humanize the web (our stated mission) with just Search. The window to the web is the browser. It is the most important software we have on our computers and yet we are as a civilization somehow Ok with the fact that most mainstream browsers through which we inform and educate are directly or indirectly in the service of advertising companies (!). If that is not dystopia, I am not sure what is. And that is what we are up against, even if the odds are against us. Orion is the first browser in 20 years that you can pay for and own. Owning your browser is a thing again thanks to Orion! It is also a great customer acqusition channel for Kagi, as we do not do advertising and many Kagi members told us this is how they found about the Search product. Yes it is hard. Yes Orion only exists on Mac, because you have to start somewhere and we are a small team. But we will get there.
infecto 3y ago
I had similar concerns from the get-go. I honestly don't know how big their team is now but I always only see one or two people post online as representative to Kagi. Won't stop me from paying for Kagi but I definitely will not be paying for the browser. Arc is a much more interesting take on a browser than Orion, and A LOT less bugs.
oriettaxx 3y ago
uhhh, I don't agree.. . I hate even Firefox in my phone: even if you set to remove data when I close it, it does not, and I have to do it by hand every time
martin_a 3y ago
I second this. Please do one thing and one thing only and that's building a good search engine. Don't become Mozilla and get lost along the way.
- Ayesh 3y ago
  In fairness to Mozilla, Thunderbird, Bugzilla, and a few projects like DMOZ were fairly well received projects. Even recent ones like Firefox Send and their email forwarding service are quite nice additions. On the software side, their investments in in-browser translations are money well spent IMO. It's the stuff like Firefox OS and Pocket gave the bad rep to Mozilla. I don't know what they were smoking about Pocket, but I can see their thought process in making Firefox OS. Chrome OS eventually did become a mainstream OS, it could have been Firefox OS too, if it has the right people and money.
stupendousyappi 3y ago
This is how I feel about Vlad's statement on their Discord that he wants to provide email services. That strikes me as a big project in terms of both development and operations, somewhat contrary to their privacy focus, and not something that their users are asking for (on Discord, I'd say that most commenters said they were unlikely to use it any time soon, switching would be too much of a hassle). And while I subscribe to Kagi and love the search product, they're still a tiny company with no long term track record, and far from what I would feel comfortable trusting with my email, which IMO is much more sensitive than my search history. Meanwhile, although Kagi Search already reliably beats Google IMO, there's still a ton of stuff they could do to improve their main product.
- tiltowait 3y ago
  I had similar reservations when I read the email discussion. I hope they aren't spreading themselves too thin. I use Orion as my daily driver (because of the nested tree view), but Kagi Search is more important to me, and I don't want to see that go down under the weight of a bunch of distractions.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Completely agree with you that Kagi e-mail will be unnecessary, even though I trust them on privacy. There are already great e-mail providers, such as Fastmail. But it makes some sense for them to go for e-mail, since they're already hitting Google on search. They're basically going after Google where it's possible: search, web browser, e-mail. They can't go after Google on maps or video streaming, so they do what they can. I'd much rather they innovate and get ready for the future of the internet after AI has destroyed traditional discovery.
  - kzhe 3y ago
    But they are going after google maps. There's a beta "Kagi maps" on their maps tab
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
zaphod420 3y ago
As someone who pays for kagi search, and also paid for Orion Browser, please keep wasting my money on this.
gkbrk 3y ago
As another paying Kagi user, I feel that this is not a waste of money. A browser that blocks tracking and advertisements by default is not only good for the users privacy and security, it directly hurts their #1 competitor. It's two birds with one stone.
freediver 3y ago
Firefox suffers from the same problem almost all other browsers suffer - it is ad-supported (indirectly in its case). This impedes its ability to be the real user agent, as its customer is the world's biggest advertising agency, not its users. Like with Kagi search, we wanted to build a browser that gives power back to the user and aligns all incentives. We find this incredibly important. This is why, unlike Firefox, Orion is both zero telemetry and comes with a built-in ad and tracking blocker. And also unlike Firefox, this makes Orion both privacy respecting and privacy protecting, by default. And that is just a start of things you get when you align incentives in a browser.

I’m also a paying user (and a fan) of Kagi. I’m still confused by the strategy. If you are not Google and trying to have an hegemony on the web, there’s no obvious link between a browser and a search engine. I don’t see the point from a business perspective. It sends a strange signal to users "Hey, by the way, we are reinventing the wheel and making also a browser that works only on some operating systems". It’s a bit like going for groceries and then your merchant told you all the time "By the way, I’m selling this car prototype. It makes sense! You have to take your car anyway to comes shopping for groceries so why not buying the one from us?". But I’m a cyclist…

Closi 3y ago
100%! There is more than enough to work on in the search engine space without getting distracted by other red oceans. Is it just that the search engine doesn't make enough space or they are finding it isn't sticky enough, so need to add more services to justify the price? (e.g. email...)
Ayesh 3y ago
> going for groceries... I really this analogy. It feels weird especially when Google and Brave both have their own browser and ad programs, so it's in Kagi's favor to stay as far as possible from inventing their own browser.
freediver 3y ago
Comment above address a part of the question https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154 Second part of the answer to your question is that you can not humanize the web (our stated mission) with just Search. The window to the web is the browser. It is the most important software we have on our computers and yet we are as a civilization somehow Ok with the fact that most mainstream browsers through which we inform and educate are directly or indirectly in the service of advertising companies (!). If that is not dystopia, I am not sure what is. And that is what we are up against, even if the odds are against us. Orion is the first browser in 20 years that you can pay for and own. Owning your browser is a thing again thanks to Orion! It is also a great customer acqusition channel for Kagi, as we do not do advertising and many Kagi members told us this is how they found about the Search product. Yes it is hard. Yes Orion only exists on Mac, because you have to start somewhere and we are a small team. But we will get there.

infecto 3y ago

I had similar concerns from the get-go. I honestly don't know how big their team is now but I always only see one or two people post online as representative to Kagi. Won't stop me from paying for Kagi but I definitely will not be paying for the browser. Arc is a much more interesting take on a browser than Orion, and A LOT less bugs.

oriettaxx 3y ago

uhhh, I don't agree.. . I hate even Firefox in my phone: even if you set to remove data when I close it, it does not, and I have to do it by hand every time

martin_a 3y ago

I second this. Please do one thing and one thing only and that's building a good search engine. Don't become Mozilla and get lost along the way.

Ayesh 3y ago
In fairness to Mozilla, Thunderbird, Bugzilla, and a few projects like DMOZ were fairly well received projects. Even recent ones like Firefox Send and their email forwarding service are quite nice additions. On the software side, their investments in in-browser translations are money well spent IMO. It's the stuff like Firefox OS and Pocket gave the bad rep to Mozilla. I don't know what they were smoking about Pocket, but I can see their thought process in making Firefox OS. Chrome OS eventually did become a mainstream OS, it could have been Firefox OS too, if it has the right people and money.

stupendousyappi 3y ago

This is how I feel about Vlad's statement on their Discord that he wants to provide email services. That strikes me as a big project in terms of both development and operations, somewhat contrary to their privacy focus, and not something that their users are asking for (on Discord, I'd say that most commenters said they were unlikely to use it any time soon, switching would be too much of a hassle). And while I subscribe to Kagi and love the search product, they're still a tiny company with no long term track record, and far from what I would feel comfortable trusting with my email, which IMO is much more sensitive than my search history. Meanwhile, although Kagi Search already reliably beats Google IMO, there's still a ton of stuff they could do to improve their main product.

tiltowait 3y ago
I had similar reservations when I read the email discussion. I hope they aren't spreading themselves too thin. I use Orion as my daily driver (because of the nested tree view), but Kagi Search is more important to me, and I don't want to see that go down under the weight of a bunch of distractions.
carlosjobim 3y ago
Completely agree with you that Kagi e-mail will be unnecessary, even though I trust them on privacy. There are already great e-mail providers, such as Fastmail. But it makes some sense for them to go for e-mail, since they're already hitting Google on search. They're basically going after Google where it's possible: search, web browser, e-mail. They can't go after Google on maps or video streaming, so they do what they can. I'd much rather they innovate and get ready for the future of the internet after AI has destroyed traditional discovery.
- kzhe 3y ago
  But they are going after google maps. There's a beta "Kagi maps" on their maps tab
  - carlosjobim 3y ago

zaphod420 3y ago

As someone who pays for kagi search, and also paid for Orion Browser, please keep wasting my money on this.

gkbrk 3y ago

As another paying Kagi user, I feel that this is not a waste of money. A browser that blocks tracking and advertisements by default is not only good for the users privacy and security, it directly hurts their #1 competitor. It's two birds with one stone.

freediver 3y ago

Firefox suffers from the same problem almost all other browsers suffer - it is ad-supported (indirectly in its case). This impedes its ability to be the real user agent, as its customer is the world's biggest advertising agency, not its users. Like with Kagi search, we wanted to build a browser that gives power back to the user and aligns all incentives. We find this incredibly important. This is why, unlike Firefox, Orion is both zero telemetry and comes with a built-in ad and tracking blocker. And also unlike Firefox, this makes Orion both privacy respecting and privacy protecting, by default. And that is just a start of things you get when you align incentives in a browser.