4 ms·

You can't pay for your groceries with your privacy. Same as you can't sell your kidney.

JacobSeated 3y ago
Your comparison is quite disgusting and grotesque of course, but let os ignore that for a moment and address the false idea that users are "paying with their privacy"; such opinions is probably the result of a number of logical fallacies. There is no exchange going on, quite literally, and users get a service, basically for free. Whatever definition you make up to describe the business model does not change this fact. In addition, so-called tracking is not the problem in itself, and especially so since users are anonymized. It is things like political misinformation and resulting manipulation that is problematic – not targeted ads themselves. Risks continue to be profoundly exaggerated, and people, even those in the know, seem bend on propagating such misinformation. Please, let's stick to a factually based discussion. Derailing the discussion with grotesque and perverted irrelevant comparisons of organ trading is not helpful.
- vincnetas 3y ago
  Ok, i can rephrase. You cant sell your right to privacy. As you can't sell any other human rights. Or any constitutional rights.
- throw_a_grenade 3y ago
  OK, I have a better comparison: companies are not allowed to give away rotten food for 0€, and talk bollocks like "we give you a choice to pay for the fresh one". They need to dispose of it to make sure no-one attempts to eat it, even hungry people in poverty who have trouble to get the food in other ways. Because getting free food is not a fundamental right either, isn't it? Personal data is a toxic asset. It also needs to be disposed of.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  "Grotesque" ? My attention is mine. It's part of my mind's inalienable cognitive functions. And yet you would sell it over to the highest bidder for profit without my consent. I call what you're advocating for mind rape. > There is no exchange going on, quite literally Total bullshit. If there was no exchange, Meta wouldn't be offering users a "Pay or Okay" take it or leave it deal. The mere existence of this thread is evidence of the fact they were extracting value from people's personal information and attention. The existence of an alternative is evidence of the existence of the other exchange.
thaumasiotes 3y ago
Paying for groceries with privacy is not only possible, it's extremely common. That's the entire concept of a membership card (at stores which will sell to the general public).
- vincnetas 3y ago
  Thing with discount cards is that they track you when you buy something and thats it. But you cant get 10$ discount in exchange for retailer getting a right to track all your web browsing and profiling you using that information. And EU is fighting this.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  That's a different situation IMO. The data is constrained to what I buy from them, and my understanding under the GDPR is that they can't share it with anyone else (at least I never gave permission for that). I can use the store and not flash my membership card if I don't want them tracking a particular purchase. This option doesn't exist with Facebook, you can't opt in and out from click to click. And they share the information with any number of outside parties. Furthermore the charge that Facebook is levying vastly exceeds the value of the information they're forgoing if I pay them.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > I can use the store and not flash my membership card if I don't want them tracking a particular purchase. You might have more trouble than that. Did you use a payment card for the secret purchase? Have you ever used the same card while providing your membership information?

Your comparison is quite disgusting and grotesque of course, but let os ignore that for a moment and address the false idea that users are "paying with their privacy"; such opinions is probably the result of a number of logical fallacies. There is no exchange going on, quite literally, and users get a service, basically for free. Whatever definition you make up to describe the business model does not change this fact. In addition, so-called tracking is not the problem in itself, and especially so since users are anonymized. It is things like political misinformation and resulting manipulation that is problematic – not targeted ads themselves. Risks continue to be profoundly exaggerated, and people, even those in the know, seem bend on propagating such misinformation. Please, let's stick to a factually based discussion. Derailing the discussion with grotesque and perverted irrelevant comparisons of organ trading is not helpful.

vincnetas 3y ago
Ok, i can rephrase. You cant sell your right to privacy. As you can't sell any other human rights. Or any constitutional rights.
throw_a_grenade 3y ago
OK, I have a better comparison: companies are not allowed to give away rotten food for 0€, and talk bollocks like "we give you a choice to pay for the fresh one". They need to dispose of it to make sure no-one attempts to eat it, even hungry people in poverty who have trouble to get the food in other ways. Because getting free food is not a fundamental right either, isn't it? Personal data is a toxic asset. It also needs to be disposed of.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
"Grotesque" ? My attention is mine. It's part of my mind's inalienable cognitive functions. And yet you would sell it over to the highest bidder for profit without my consent. I call what you're advocating for mind rape. > There is no exchange going on, quite literally Total bullshit. If there was no exchange, Meta wouldn't be offering users a "Pay or Okay" take it or leave it deal. The mere existence of this thread is evidence of the fact they were extracting value from people's personal information and attention. The existence of an alternative is evidence of the existence of the other exchange.

thaumasiotes 3y ago

Paying for groceries with privacy is not only possible, it's extremely common. That's the entire concept of a membership card (at stores which will sell to the general public).

vincnetas 3y ago
Thing with discount cards is that they track you when you buy something and thats it. But you cant get 10$ discount in exchange for retailer getting a right to track all your web browsing and profiling you using that information. And EU is fighting this.
nerdbert 3y ago
That's a different situation IMO. The data is constrained to what I buy from them, and my understanding under the GDPR is that they can't share it with anyone else (at least I never gave permission for that). I can use the store and not flash my membership card if I don't want them tracking a particular purchase. This option doesn't exist with Facebook, you can't opt in and out from click to click. And they share the information with any number of outside parties. Furthermore the charge that Facebook is levying vastly exceeds the value of the information they're forgoing if I pay them.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > I can use the store and not flash my membership card if I don't want them tracking a particular purchase. You might have more trouble than that. Did you use a payment card for the secret purchase? Have you ever used the same card while providing your membership information?