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> Works great in Singapore. Heh. Where young people postpone marriage and continue to stay with their parents because of how long it takes to get a HDB flat?

by unmole 3y ago

arcticbull 3y ago
I don’t understand how this is a criticism, really. It was successful, they should do more of it. Do you not think people are living with parents, renting and postponing marriage in big American cities because they can’t afford more than a shoebox? At worst it sounds lateral. But really it sounds like we need some comparative data. How many Singaporeans are in that position as compared to America or god forbid Canada? Remember that 80% of Singaporeans live in HDB flats, and they have the infrastructure and experience to throw up some more towers fast.
- noobermin 3y ago
  The government has been explicit about their intent here. They are holding off on building more even though hdb rents and hdb flat resale prices are skyrocketting because they don't want to lead to a drop in prices or may be even a cooling in the rate. As in...they want to keep current flat owners happy. The argument re hdb is probably still valid but it had more currency 10 or 20 years ago. Today, sg looks more and more like the rest of the developed world cities that refuse to build enough housing to meet demand. It's probably even more frustrating in that if there is any government that could do it if they wanted to, it would be the sg govt.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > The government has been explicit about their intent here So it worked until they decided to stop doing it. And this is an argument against doing it? :)
    - unmole 3y ago
      So it worked until it didn't. The government needs to constrain supply to keep the voter base happy at the expense of younger folks. A private builder wouldn't find itself in a similar situation.
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        No, it worked until they stopped. That's not the same thing until 'working until it doesn't' - one is endogenous, one is exogenous. > The government needs to constrain supply to keep the voter base happy at the expense of younger folks. They literally do not. > A private builder wouldn't find itself in a similar situation. That's literally how it works right now in America, and Canada and the UK. The government constrains development in major metros to appease landowners. 83% of the Bay Area is zoned single-family, a zoning scheme developed with the explicit intent of keeping housing unaffordable for people of color in Berkeley in 1916 and copied throughout the US. That's exactly the situation private builders find themselves in. [1] [1] https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-single-family-home-zoning https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-sin...
- unmole 3y ago
  > Remember that 80% of Singaporeans live in HDB flats This statistic includes the young people living with their parents. So, not exactly a refutation of my point. Young couples in the rest of the world typically rent for a few years before before they buy their own place. The tax treatment in Singapore makes this very unattractive.
Swizec 3y ago
> > Works great in Singapore. > Heh. Where young people postpone marriage and continue to stay with their parents As opposed to USA where marriage rates are the lowest they’ve ever been? (still higher than all other OECD countries except Turkey) https://ourworldindata.org/marriages-and-divorces https://ourworldindata.org/marriages-and-divorces
scythe 3y ago
Singapore has some serious geographic headwinds. The population density of the whole country is higher than the city of San Francisco. The fact that they are not in constant crisis is already an achievement.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  I’m convinced that anyone that points to sg as an example of but an anecdote about itself knows nothing about anything basically. Singapora is amazing to visit but you would never catch me living there. It truly is Disney-like. Between the slave class that comes out at 22:30 and the fact that the country doesn’t exist without China shipping future landfill material around the world it’s just its own thing. I look forward to going back, but it’s not a place that works anywhere except right there and for it’s reasons.
  - jhanschoo 3y ago
    > Between the slave class that comes out at 22:30 Correct me if I misunderstand, and for clarification to other responders, but I believe this is referring to the class of foreign laborers (most visible as young men working hard manual labor and women working domestic labor) which Singapore employs on a temporary, long-term basis from less prosperous countries.
    - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
      The people that come out with pressure washers every single night and spray everything, from my casual investigate were at least mostly born there, some Indonesian and Malay I talked to. The constructions workers, were almost all Indonesian. A lot of Malay working kitchens and manual labor. All of Asia shuts down at 2200 or so; except Borneo oddly. But in Singapore it was crazy just how many people with pressure washers there were, in an every night routine deep cleaning.
      - jhanschoo 3y ago
        Considering the racial makeup for these jobs that you just mentioned, I think you are generalizing quite strongly from your experience. (edit: In my experience those in the food service industry is also Chinese-dominated, e.g. in hawker centers. Note that halal kitchens tend to be Malay-dominated.) I don't think there is anything sinister about one of the most developed economies and cities being a city that doesn't sleep.

> Works great in Singapore. Heh. Where young people postpone marriage and continue to stay with their parents because of how long it takes to get a HDB flat?

by unmole 3y ago

> Works great in Singapore. Heh. Where young people postpone marriage and continue to stay with their parents because of how long it takes to get a HDB flat?

arcticbull 3y ago

I don’t understand how this is a criticism, really. It was successful, they should do more of it. Do you not think people are living with parents, renting and postponing marriage in big American cities because they can’t afford more than a shoebox? At worst it sounds lateral. But really it sounds like we need some comparative data. How many Singaporeans are in that position as compared to America or god forbid Canada? Remember that 80% of Singaporeans live in HDB flats, and they have the infrastructure and experience to throw up some more towers fast.

noobermin 3y ago
The government has been explicit about their intent here. They are holding off on building more even though hdb rents and hdb flat resale prices are skyrocketting because they don't want to lead to a drop in prices or may be even a cooling in the rate. As in...they want to keep current flat owners happy. The argument re hdb is probably still valid but it had more currency 10 or 20 years ago. Today, sg looks more and more like the rest of the developed world cities that refuse to build enough housing to meet demand. It's probably even more frustrating in that if there is any government that could do it if they wanted to, it would be the sg govt.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > The government has been explicit about their intent here So it worked until they decided to stop doing it. And this is an argument against doing it? :)
  - unmole 3y ago
    So it worked until it didn't. The government needs to constrain supply to keep the voter base happy at the expense of younger folks. A private builder wouldn't find itself in a similar situation.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      No, it worked until they stopped. That's not the same thing until 'working until it doesn't' - one is endogenous, one is exogenous. > The government needs to constrain supply to keep the voter base happy at the expense of younger folks. They literally do not. > A private builder wouldn't find itself in a similar situation. That's literally how it works right now in America, and Canada and the UK. The government constrains development in major metros to appease landowners. 83% of the Bay Area is zoned single-family, a zoning scheme developed with the explicit intent of keeping housing unaffordable for people of color in Berkeley in 1916 and copied throughout the US. That's exactly the situation private builders find themselves in. [1] [1] https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-single-family-home-zoning https://www.kqed.org/news/11840548/the-racist-history-of-sin...
unmole 3y ago
> Remember that 80% of Singaporeans live in HDB flats This statistic includes the young people living with their parents. So, not exactly a refutation of my point. Young couples in the rest of the world typically rent for a few years before before they buy their own place. The tax treatment in Singapore makes this very unattractive.

Swizec 3y ago

> > Works great in Singapore. > Heh. Where young people postpone marriage and continue to stay with their parents As opposed to USA where marriage rates are the lowest they’ve ever been? (still higher than all other OECD countries except Turkey) https://ourworldindata.org/marriages-and-divorces https://ourworldindata.org/marriages-and-divorces

scythe 3y ago

Singapore has some serious geographic headwinds. The population density of the whole country is higher than the city of San Francisco. The fact that they are not in constant crisis is already an achievement.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
I’m convinced that anyone that points to sg as an example of but an anecdote about itself knows nothing about anything basically. Singapora is amazing to visit but you would never catch me living there. It truly is Disney-like. Between the slave class that comes out at 22:30 and the fact that the country doesn’t exist without China shipping future landfill material around the world it’s just its own thing. I look forward to going back, but it’s not a place that works anywhere except right there and for it’s reasons.
- jhanschoo 3y ago
  > Between the slave class that comes out at 22:30 Correct me if I misunderstand, and for clarification to other responders, but I believe this is referring to the class of foreign laborers (most visible as young men working hard manual labor and women working domestic labor) which Singapore employs on a temporary, long-term basis from less prosperous countries.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    The people that come out with pressure washers every single night and spray everything, from my casual investigate were at least mostly born there, some Indonesian and Malay I talked to. The constructions workers, were almost all Indonesian. A lot of Malay working kitchens and manual labor. All of Asia shuts down at 2200 or so; except Borneo oddly. But in Singapore it was crazy just how many people with pressure washers there were, in an every night routine deep cleaning.
    - jhanschoo 3y ago
      Considering the racial makeup for these jobs that you just mentioned, I think you are generalizing quite strongly from your experience. (edit: In my experience those in the food service industry is also Chinese-dominated, e.g. in hawker centers. Note that halal kitchens tend to be Malay-dominated.) I don't think there is anything sinister about one of the most developed economies and cities being a city that doesn't sleep.