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X is a moving target, RHEL continuing to support X and push it to customers maintains it's relevance and helps propel it forward. By not channeling resources i

X is a moving target, RHEL continuing to support X and push it to customers maintains it's relevance and helps propel it forward. By not channeling resources into supporting and maintaining X, they will simultaneously slow the speed that X is moving, be able to divert more resources to Wayland, and light a fire under the asses of people who haven't transitioned to Wayland. X is 32 years old and Wayland has been the replacement for it going on 15 years! That's insane, it's time for distros to pick a side. Either continue to support X or switch to Wayland.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> By not channeling resources into supporting and maintaining X, they will simultaneously slow the speed that X is moving, be able to divert more resources to Wayland, and light a fire under the asses of people who haven't transitioned to Wayland. Ah yes, the time honored "if you can't reach feature parity, just make the old thing worse" strategy. That'll really win hearts and minds.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Are you working on X? Are you donating to get others to work on X? He who does the work in open source calls the shots. Nobody is working on X anymore as of like 10 years ago, holdouts need to put up and support X, or switch to Wayland. Sure Wayland needs work, but everything I can see says it is a better architecture and people are working on it.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    Mm, there's a fine line there - people who aren't contributing aren't entitled to demand work from people who are, but that doesn't mean that their complaints about shortcomings are somehow invalid. Or put differently, just because Wayland is given away for free doesn't make it immune to criticism. And > Nobody is working on X anymore as of like 10 years ago is just factually incorrect; it's actively maintained, and it's kind of hard to point at a single changelog because of how Xorg releases components separately, but ex. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Modesetting-TearFree-Merged https://www.phoronix.com/news/Modesetting-TearFree-Merged is a feature release from late last year, and there have been multiple security/bug fix releases this year. In any event, yes, I am donating to drive work on Xorg; am I allowed to call out regressions now?
    - bluGill 3y ago
      X is maintained, but only the bare minimum possible. I wasn't aware of TearFree, but looks like someone stepped in to do that work - will that person continue add features to X, switch to Wayland, or go away: I don't know. That work plus security/bug releases is not very much. How much are you donating to Xorg? $200,000 entitles you to one year labor (that is probably a low estimate). If it is $100 (a much more likely donation) you gets you an hours worth of effort. Xorg needs a lot of money just to keep the lights on, so probably you don't even get that hour just because it all goes to web hosting and other overhead (thanks for giving it - they do need that)
- Vilian 3y ago
  they aren't making it worse, they are only focusing wayland to reach feature parity, and xorg is already death in development, so it don't change too much
- cptskippy 3y ago
  Ah yes, the time honored "I don't like the new thing, so I'm going to cry foul and lie about the actions of others to characterize them as evil" strategy. Saying "hey, we don't want to keep supporting this product so we're going to stop" is not the same as "we want to make this go away, let's sabotage it." It's indigenous to equate the two. But you don't care right? The ends justify the means after all.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    Well now I'm mostly going to conclude that Wayland proponents are remarkably unpleasant if you dare disagree with them. But cropping out the personal attacks and addressing substance: > "hey, we don't want to keep supporting this product so we're going to stop" is not the same as "we want to make this go away, let's sabotage it." From inside Red Hat, that's true. From outside, they look similar. As a user, they're functionally identical; anything not actively maintained and supported will degrade or die, because users are forced to new hardware that needs to be supported (if nothing else, by old hardware dying) and new software and OS versions (by company policy, audit requirements, and vendor support). If and end-user was using, say, an accessibility tool that doesn't work on RHEL 10, the motives and mechanism are secondary to the fact that the tool no longer functions.
    - cptskippy 3y ago
      > Well now I'm mostly going to conclude that Wayland proponents are remarkably unpleasant if you dare disagree with them. I literally just threw your own rhetoric back at you. Is that an admission that you're remarkably unpleasant? > From outside, they look similar. As a user, they're functionally identical; The sort of entitlement you must have to think anyone is required to financially support your project... This is how open source works, you support the projects you like and want to succeed or that benefit you. Full stop. No one is required to fund or support a project just because it's open source and anyone is allowed to walk away from something when they feel it no longer serves their interest. If X can't survive without Redhat funneling money into it, then Redhat was the only thing keeping it alive and it's time to put it out to pasture. You may not like the thought of your project or community dying but it is 100% dishonest to characterize it as sabotage or an attack. That's the type of logic abusers use on victims.
DonHopkins 3y ago
X is a moving target only in the vertical Wile E Coyote sense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRSHzenjiNA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRSHzenjiNA

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

> By not channeling resources into supporting and maintaining X, they will simultaneously slow the speed that X is moving, be able to divert more resources to Wayland, and light a fire under the asses of people who haven't transitioned to Wayland. Ah yes, the time honored "if you can't reach feature parity, just make the old thing worse" strategy. That'll really win hearts and minds.

bluGill 3y ago
Are you working on X? Are you donating to get others to work on X? He who does the work in open source calls the shots. Nobody is working on X anymore as of like 10 years ago, holdouts need to put up and support X, or switch to Wayland. Sure Wayland needs work, but everything I can see says it is a better architecture and people are working on it.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Mm, there's a fine line there - people who aren't contributing aren't entitled to demand work from people who are, but that doesn't mean that their complaints about shortcomings are somehow invalid. Or put differently, just because Wayland is given away for free doesn't make it immune to criticism. And > Nobody is working on X anymore as of like 10 years ago is just factually incorrect; it's actively maintained, and it's kind of hard to point at a single changelog because of how Xorg releases components separately, but ex. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Modesetting-TearFree-Merged https://www.phoronix.com/news/Modesetting-TearFree-Merged is a feature release from late last year, and there have been multiple security/bug fix releases this year. In any event, yes, I am donating to drive work on Xorg; am I allowed to call out regressions now?
  - bluGill 3y ago
    X is maintained, but only the bare minimum possible. I wasn't aware of TearFree, but looks like someone stepped in to do that work - will that person continue add features to X, switch to Wayland, or go away: I don't know. That work plus security/bug releases is not very much. How much are you donating to Xorg? $200,000 entitles you to one year labor (that is probably a low estimate). If it is $100 (a much more likely donation) you gets you an hours worth of effort. Xorg needs a lot of money just to keep the lights on, so probably you don't even get that hour just because it all goes to web hosting and other overhead (thanks for giving it - they do need that)
Vilian 3y ago
they aren't making it worse, they are only focusing wayland to reach feature parity, and xorg is already death in development, so it don't change too much
cptskippy 3y ago
Ah yes, the time honored "I don't like the new thing, so I'm going to cry foul and lie about the actions of others to characterize them as evil" strategy. Saying "hey, we don't want to keep supporting this product so we're going to stop" is not the same as "we want to make this go away, let's sabotage it." It's indigenous to equate the two. But you don't care right? The ends justify the means after all.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  Well now I'm mostly going to conclude that Wayland proponents are remarkably unpleasant if you dare disagree with them. But cropping out the personal attacks and addressing substance: > "hey, we don't want to keep supporting this product so we're going to stop" is not the same as "we want to make this go away, let's sabotage it." From inside Red Hat, that's true. From outside, they look similar. As a user, they're functionally identical; anything not actively maintained and supported will degrade or die, because users are forced to new hardware that needs to be supported (if nothing else, by old hardware dying) and new software and OS versions (by company policy, audit requirements, and vendor support). If and end-user was using, say, an accessibility tool that doesn't work on RHEL 10, the motives and mechanism are secondary to the fact that the tool no longer functions.
  - cptskippy 3y ago
    > Well now I'm mostly going to conclude that Wayland proponents are remarkably unpleasant if you dare disagree with them. I literally just threw your own rhetoric back at you. Is that an admission that you're remarkably unpleasant? > From outside, they look similar. As a user, they're functionally identical; The sort of entitlement you must have to think anyone is required to financially support your project... This is how open source works, you support the projects you like and want to succeed or that benefit you. Full stop. No one is required to fund or support a project just because it's open source and anyone is allowed to walk away from something when they feel it no longer serves their interest. If X can't survive without Redhat funneling money into it, then Redhat was the only thing keeping it alive and it's time to put it out to pasture. You may not like the thought of your project or community dying but it is 100% dishonest to characterize it as sabotage or an attack. That's the type of logic abusers use on victims.

DonHopkins 3y ago

X is a moving target only in the vertical Wile E Coyote sense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRSHzenjiNA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRSHzenjiNA