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English isn't my first language but "but explodes seconds later" implies to me the fact it reached space doesn't actually matter and the whole thing is a failur

English isn't my first language but "but explodes seconds later" implies to me the fact it reached space doesn't actually matter and the whole thing is a failure. "I had a beautiful wedding. The walls were yellow", isn't quite the same and "I had a beautiful wedding, but the walls were yellow." In the same way, it would be more neutral (at least to my French speaking ears) to say "It reached space and exploded seconds later."

volkk 3y ago
you're 100% correct. it's written in a manipulative way
- seadan83 3y ago
  The goal of spaceX was to spend 90 minutes in space and then return to Earth. The 'but' in the sentence to say: "some of that goal was achieved, but not all of it", is not manipulative. I recommend reading that exact article to see that it's not overly negative nor overly positive. Relative to the goals of SpaceX, what else was the headline supposed to say? > SpaceX’s uncrewed Starship spacecraft, developed to carry astronauts to the moon and beyond, reached space for the first time on Saturday but was presumed to have failed minutes later. > It was Starship’s second test after its first attempt to reach space ended in an explosion earlier this year. > The two-stage rocket ship blasted off from the Elon Musk-owned company’s Starbase launch site near Boca Chica in Texas, east of Brownsville, on a planned 90-minute uncrewed flight into space. > If successful, the rocket would have ended up landing in the Pacific ocean near Hawaii. The company hopes the rocket can eventually manage a trip around the Earth, which could take an hour and a half. > The two stages of the spacecraft successfully separated about two and a half minutes into the flight, but shortly afterwards, SpaceX announced that it could not find a signal from the second stage, which it declared lost. > The company believes the rocket’s self-destruction mechanism was set off after it lost the signal. > SpaceX’s second flight is an improvement on its first test launch in April, when both stages ultimately exploded four minutes into its flight. The spacecraft’s first stage, nicknamed “Super Heavy” for its 33 engines, had failed, causing both stages to explode. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/nov/18/elon-musk-spacex-loses-contact-with-starship-rocket-after-second-launch-attempt https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/nov/18/elon-musk-sp...
seadan83 3y ago
> English isn't my first language but "but explodes seconds later" implies to me the fact it reached space doesn't actually matter and the whole thing is a failure. I don't think that is the case at all. The word 'however' could have been used just as well here. "We ran a good race, but finished second". The 'but' does not imply a negation of all success, but instead a lack of achievement of all successes. I speak French, it's effectively the same. "We went for 100%, but in the end got 90%". "On voulais 100%, mais a la fin on a gagne 90%". Presumably the end goal of the space ship was not to explode in space, but to also return as well. It all comes down to an expectation that the rocket was to do more. If said with a simple "and", it's unclear whether that was the end goal or not. I suspect you're perhaps reading mal-intent where there is really none.
seadan83 3y ago
Counter-point, how to state that the rocket was not meant to explode, but did? > "It reached space and exploded seconds later."" This is actually confusing to me, was it supposed to explode seconds later? Was this actually a test of a ICBM and not a spaceship? Further, is this statement actually not a bit too neutral? Almost to the point of not acknowledging that yeah, this was not 100% success. It's almost a bias in the other way to not even acknowledge that this was not an intended outcome. (A) Could we say: "It reached space, exploded seconds later, and was a complete success for SpaceX." (B) Or could we say: "It reached space, but exploded second later; nonetheless a big success for SpaceX." I believe what you may have inferred was something more like: (C) "It reached space, but exploded seconds later; a complete disaster for SpaceX" Your valuation of whether the 'but' is a negative judgement or a matter of fact that the full goal was not achieved, I believe is your bias.
seadan83 3y ago
A few different thoughts here.. Your example is actually spot on: "I had a beautiful wedding, but the walls were yellow." Did the walls being yellow make the wedding a disaster? No, but did the yellow walls somehow lead to a less than optimal result? Yes. In the first statement: "I had a beautiful wedding. The walls were yellow", it is almost misleading because the statement is withholding the idea that the yellow walls were a bad thing. It's up to the reader to decide how bad the walls being yellow were. Some readers may decide that the wedding was completely gashed, others may decide that it was 98% great. Another example to consider: "I had a beautiful wedding, but the cake was not enough." vs "I had a beautiful wedding, the cake was not enough". The latter is not as clear, was the cake just so good that it ran out? The first one, implies that there was a greater expectation. Which goes to my point, it's a big omission if you leave out the idea there was a greater expectation.

volkk 3y ago

you're 100% correct. it's written in a manipulative way

seadan83 3y ago
The goal of spaceX was to spend 90 minutes in space and then return to Earth. The 'but' in the sentence to say: "some of that goal was achieved, but not all of it", is not manipulative. I recommend reading that exact article to see that it's not overly negative nor overly positive. Relative to the goals of SpaceX, what else was the headline supposed to say? > SpaceX’s uncrewed Starship spacecraft, developed to carry astronauts to the moon and beyond, reached space for the first time on Saturday but was presumed to have failed minutes later. > It was Starship’s second test after its first attempt to reach space ended in an explosion earlier this year. > The two-stage rocket ship blasted off from the Elon Musk-owned company’s Starbase launch site near Boca Chica in Texas, east of Brownsville, on a planned 90-minute uncrewed flight into space. > If successful, the rocket would have ended up landing in the Pacific ocean near Hawaii. The company hopes the rocket can eventually manage a trip around the Earth, which could take an hour and a half. > The two stages of the spacecraft successfully separated about two and a half minutes into the flight, but shortly afterwards, SpaceX announced that it could not find a signal from the second stage, which it declared lost. > The company believes the rocket’s self-destruction mechanism was set off after it lost the signal. > SpaceX’s second flight is an improvement on its first test launch in April, when both stages ultimately exploded four minutes into its flight. The spacecraft’s first stage, nicknamed “Super Heavy” for its 33 engines, had failed, causing both stages to explode. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/nov/18/elon-musk-spacex-loses-contact-with-starship-rocket-after-second-launch-attempt https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/nov/18/elon-musk-sp...

seadan83 3y ago

> English isn't my first language but "but explodes seconds later" implies to me the fact it reached space doesn't actually matter and the whole thing is a failure. I don't think that is the case at all. The word 'however' could have been used just as well here. "We ran a good race, but finished second". The 'but' does not imply a negation of all success, but instead a lack of achievement of all successes. I speak French, it's effectively the same. "We went for 100%, but in the end got 90%". "On voulais 100%, mais a la fin on a gagne 90%". Presumably the end goal of the space ship was not to explode in space, but to also return as well. It all comes down to an expectation that the rocket was to do more. If said with a simple "and", it's unclear whether that was the end goal or not. I suspect you're perhaps reading mal-intent where there is really none.

seadan83 3y ago

Counter-point, how to state that the rocket was not meant to explode, but did? > "It reached space and exploded seconds later."" This is actually confusing to me, was it supposed to explode seconds later? Was this actually a test of a ICBM and not a spaceship? Further, is this statement actually not a bit too neutral? Almost to the point of not acknowledging that yeah, this was not 100% success. It's almost a bias in the other way to not even acknowledge that this was not an intended outcome. (A) Could we say: "It reached space, exploded seconds later, and was a complete success for SpaceX." (B) Or could we say: "It reached space, but exploded second later; nonetheless a big success for SpaceX." I believe what you may have inferred was something more like: (C) "It reached space, but exploded seconds later; a complete disaster for SpaceX" Your valuation of whether the 'but' is a negative judgement or a matter of fact that the full goal was not achieved, I believe is your bias.

seadan83 3y ago

A few different thoughts here.. Your example is actually spot on: "I had a beautiful wedding, but the walls were yellow." Did the walls being yellow make the wedding a disaster? No, but did the yellow walls somehow lead to a less than optimal result? Yes. In the first statement: "I had a beautiful wedding. The walls were yellow", it is almost misleading because the statement is withholding the idea that the yellow walls were a bad thing. It's up to the reader to decide how bad the walls being yellow were. Some readers may decide that the wedding was completely gashed, others may decide that it was 98% great. Another example to consider: "I had a beautiful wedding, but the cake was not enough." vs "I had a beautiful wedding, the cake was not enough". The latter is not as clear, was the cake just so good that it ran out? The first one, implies that there was a greater expectation. Which goes to my point, it's a big omission if you leave out the idea there was a greater expectation.