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> Some parents say that we should ignore her while she’s throwing a tantrum, so she learns that they don’t work. I just find that too sad, though. It seems to m

> Some parents say that we should ignore her while she’s throwing a tantrum, so she learns that they don’t work. I just find that too sad, though. It seems to me like she is spiraling out and needs help regulating her emotions. I like to think that by staying calm and present instead, I can sort of link our nervous systems together, my still reservoir damping and absorbing her small violent waves. This is really dangerous. For your sake and her sake, learn how to calmly walk away (as long as she is in a safe place) and let her tantrum run its course. Otherwise, her small violent waves at just the right moment may cause large, violent waves in you. You are tying your emotions to her emotions. I have read too many stories of shaken baby syndrome or other abuse that would have been prevented just by walking away.

nostrademons 3y ago
Most people by the time they reach adulthood learn how to control their emotions, so that small violent waves become little ripples become calm stillness. For those where small violent waves still become large violent waves, yeah, this is probably not the safest approach for parent or baby. Those folks are going to have a tough time parenting to begin with, though.
zrail 3y ago
> her small violent waves at just the right moment may cause large, violent waves in you. In my (admittedly limited) experience, this isn't really how it works, at least with little ones. They start having these really big feelings, don't know what to do or how to handle them, and they _need_ an adult present to help them regulate. Walking away can help them learn how to self-regulate, but the better play (again, IMO only) is to first teach them the skills on _how_ to regulate (deep breathing, butterfly hugs, distraction, etc). Walking away is a tool, just like any other, but it's a big tool for bigger kids IMO. Now of course this only goes so far, and if the parent starts getting to the point where it feels like they're going to explode, of _course_ leaving the room is the correct thing to do. Get up, say something like "I need to leave the room to calm my body down. I will come back in a little bit. I love you." and then follow through. Go scream into a pillow, punch the bed, deep breathe, whatever. The come back and try again, with the expectation that they won't have calmed down and may have accelerated. IME this isn't super successful at one but by the time they hit three or so they have enough awareness to understand what you're telling them. Also, to clarify, I'm not talking about infants. Infants can be absolutely infuriatingly frustrating, especially when you're operating on very little or no sleep. Putting them down in a safe space and walking away for five minutes so you can primal scream in the garage is 100% better than the alternatives.
petsfed 3y ago
There's merit to both perspectives. I mean, yes, its important to recognize where your limits are so that when you feel you are approaching them, you take the moment to walk away. But as written, I understood this to be "if I haven't yet approached my limit, maybe being calm near her can actually help her". This syncs with a lot of what I've read and been taught by e.g. my kids' preschool teachers: kids need reassurance that their negative emotions are valid, and that its ok to express negative emotions. Consistently walking away from a child in the midst of expressing negative emotions past some threshold of intensity just teaches the kid that people who feel that strongly about anything should be isolated. To paraphrase your own closing statement, I've read too many stories of neglected and abandoned children that would have been prevented by not "just" walking away.
- e1g 3y ago
  Babies younger than 9-12 months cannot regulate even their own body temperature. They absolutely cannot regulate their emotional state - being calm, present, and centered is exactly what top parenting looks like for that age.
  - pdonis 3y ago
    The child in this article is just over a year old.
    - e1g 3y ago
      Yes, and the author is reflecting on their experience until now, which is mostly in the period when the baby’s brain is just forming (I have a 10 month old, and a 2.5 year old with sensory challenges)
  - petsfed 3y ago
    Emotional regulation in the form of self-soothing happens pretty quickly. Like 3-9 months, commonly. I think more importantly, the GP was using the most negative possible interpretation of what, to me, sounds like a pretty healthy and self-aware approach to the new (to the author) phenomenon of tantrums.
steve_adams_86 3y ago
I believe strongly that maladaptive behaviours like tantrums require the presence of another caring, supportive person to help establish and nurture positive adaptations. If the individual hasn't learned to manage their emotions safely and constructively, it's unlikely that they'll suddenly figure out better ways of behaving without having it modelled or otherwise shown to them. A big part of tantrums in my experience is that a child is overwhelmed and has no idea how to express what they need. Usually the tantrum is not a great indicator of what the child needs. They say they need the iPad or fruit loops. What they actually need is layered under that, and they're likely unaware of it. Walking away from them won't help them uncover that, nor will it help them feel like these bad feelings are manageable. Occasionally you need to walk away because none of us are perfect. I think if we want actual growth and progress though, we have to meet these things head on and help our kids learn better ways to live, feel, and adapt. This is a hard answer because this is usually non-trivial and arguably something many of us as adults haven't fully figured out, either. We've all got bad behaviours we still hold on to from our early days. Who are we to work these things out with our kids? And yet, this is why so many maladaptive behaviours propagate down through generations. It doesn't go away if you don't step up to it.
- zrail 3y ago
  > Usually the tantrum is not a great indicator of what the child needs. They say they need the iPad or fruit loops. What they actually need is layered under that, and they're likely unaware of it. I have had success with "body scans" where I start at the top of their head and ask "how does your brain feel" and then proceed all the way to their toes (sometimes being sillily specific about, say, the tip of their left pinky finger or whatever). Usually this reveals something about their body that they were unaware of. Hungry, thirsty, headache, something else hurts, etc. Once we have some physical needs we can address them we can move forward, and if there aren't any then we move on to emotional needs.
  - steve_adams_86 3y ago
    The physical assessment is pretty useful as an adult, too. I suppose one of the tricky things as adults is that quite often, the physical deprivations are caused by emotional issues. Not always, but it’s not uncommon. Regardless, you won’t make progress on anything without some rest, nutrition, and a little help figuring out what’s bothering you. Being human can be hard.
hutzlibu 3y ago
"I have read too many stories of shaken baby syndrome or other abuse that would have been prevented just by walking away. " Reading is something very different from experiencing it yourself. My main take is pragmatically, if I have the energy and calmness, I am with them. Hug them if they want it. Ask them, what they really want, even restrain them (in a playful, but firm way). But if I feel I cannot do it calmly, I indeed let them have their tantrum and am in the next room. But if it is in the middle of the night and other people want to sleep, then this is not an option and you have to be creative (like I wrote above, going outside with them for example always worked, or a bit of water on their head, to literally cool them)
lr4444lr 3y ago
You're reading an interpretation into something he isn't saying. He may likely just mean that it saddens him that his daughter lacks coping skills, and that he doesn't quite know yet how to convey them - not that the tantrum literally makes him sad.

nostrademons 3y ago

Most people by the time they reach adulthood learn how to control their emotions, so that small violent waves become little ripples become calm stillness. For those where small violent waves still become large violent waves, yeah, this is probably not the safest approach for parent or baby. Those folks are going to have a tough time parenting to begin with, though.

zrail 3y ago

> her small violent waves at just the right moment may cause large, violent waves in you. In my (admittedly limited) experience, this isn't really how it works, at least with little ones. They start having these really big feelings, don't know what to do or how to handle them, and they _need_ an adult present to help them regulate. Walking away can help them learn how to self-regulate, but the better play (again, IMO only) is to first teach them the skills on _how_ to regulate (deep breathing, butterfly hugs, distraction, etc). Walking away is a tool, just like any other, but it's a big tool for bigger kids IMO. Now of course this only goes so far, and if the parent starts getting to the point where it feels like they're going to explode, of _course_ leaving the room is the correct thing to do. Get up, say something like "I need to leave the room to calm my body down. I will come back in a little bit. I love you." and then follow through. Go scream into a pillow, punch the bed, deep breathe, whatever. The come back and try again, with the expectation that they won't have calmed down and may have accelerated. IME this isn't super successful at one but by the time they hit three or so they have enough awareness to understand what you're telling them. Also, to clarify, I'm not talking about infants. Infants can be absolutely infuriatingly frustrating, especially when you're operating on very little or no sleep. Putting them down in a safe space and walking away for five minutes so you can primal scream in the garage is 100% better than the alternatives.

petsfed 3y ago

There's merit to both perspectives. I mean, yes, its important to recognize where your limits are so that when you feel you are approaching them, you take the moment to walk away. But as written, I understood this to be "if I haven't yet approached my limit, maybe being calm near her can actually help her". This syncs with a lot of what I've read and been taught by e.g. my kids' preschool teachers: kids need reassurance that their negative emotions are valid, and that its ok to express negative emotions. Consistently walking away from a child in the midst of expressing negative emotions past some threshold of intensity just teaches the kid that people who feel that strongly about anything should be isolated. To paraphrase your own closing statement, I've read too many stories of neglected and abandoned children that would have been prevented by not "just" walking away.

e1g 3y ago
Babies younger than 9-12 months cannot regulate even their own body temperature. They absolutely cannot regulate their emotional state - being calm, present, and centered is exactly what top parenting looks like for that age.
- pdonis 3y ago
  The child in this article is just over a year old.
  - e1g 3y ago
    Yes, and the author is reflecting on their experience until now, which is mostly in the period when the baby’s brain is just forming (I have a 10 month old, and a 2.5 year old with sensory challenges)
- petsfed 3y ago
  Emotional regulation in the form of self-soothing happens pretty quickly. Like 3-9 months, commonly. I think more importantly, the GP was using the most negative possible interpretation of what, to me, sounds like a pretty healthy and self-aware approach to the new (to the author) phenomenon of tantrums.

steve_adams_86 3y ago

I believe strongly that maladaptive behaviours like tantrums require the presence of another caring, supportive person to help establish and nurture positive adaptations. If the individual hasn't learned to manage their emotions safely and constructively, it's unlikely that they'll suddenly figure out better ways of behaving without having it modelled or otherwise shown to them. A big part of tantrums in my experience is that a child is overwhelmed and has no idea how to express what they need. Usually the tantrum is not a great indicator of what the child needs. They say they need the iPad or fruit loops. What they actually need is layered under that, and they're likely unaware of it. Walking away from them won't help them uncover that, nor will it help them feel like these bad feelings are manageable. Occasionally you need to walk away because none of us are perfect. I think if we want actual growth and progress though, we have to meet these things head on and help our kids learn better ways to live, feel, and adapt. This is a hard answer because this is usually non-trivial and arguably something many of us as adults haven't fully figured out, either. We've all got bad behaviours we still hold on to from our early days. Who are we to work these things out with our kids? And yet, this is why so many maladaptive behaviours propagate down through generations. It doesn't go away if you don't step up to it.

zrail 3y ago
> Usually the tantrum is not a great indicator of what the child needs. They say they need the iPad or fruit loops. What they actually need is layered under that, and they're likely unaware of it. I have had success with "body scans" where I start at the top of their head and ask "how does your brain feel" and then proceed all the way to their toes (sometimes being sillily specific about, say, the tip of their left pinky finger or whatever). Usually this reveals something about their body that they were unaware of. Hungry, thirsty, headache, something else hurts, etc. Once we have some physical needs we can address them we can move forward, and if there aren't any then we move on to emotional needs.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  The physical assessment is pretty useful as an adult, too. I suppose one of the tricky things as adults is that quite often, the physical deprivations are caused by emotional issues. Not always, but it’s not uncommon. Regardless, you won’t make progress on anything without some rest, nutrition, and a little help figuring out what’s bothering you. Being human can be hard.

hutzlibu 3y ago

"I have read too many stories of shaken baby syndrome or other abuse that would have been prevented just by walking away. " Reading is something very different from experiencing it yourself. My main take is pragmatically, if I have the energy and calmness, I am with them. Hug them if they want it. Ask them, what they really want, even restrain them (in a playful, but firm way). But if I feel I cannot do it calmly, I indeed let them have their tantrum and am in the next room. But if it is in the middle of the night and other people want to sleep, then this is not an option and you have to be creative (like I wrote above, going outside with them for example always worked, or a bit of water on their head, to literally cool them)

lr4444lr 3y ago

You're reading an interpretation into something he isn't saying. He may likely just mean that it saddens him that his daughter lacks coping skills, and that he doesn't quite know yet how to convey them - not that the tantrum literally makes him sad.