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Refusing to distribute mail to a specific recipient does not sound like a 'strike' in the sense of labour dispute to me. In France (often used a reference when

Refusing to distribute mail to a specific recipient does not sound like a 'strike' in the sense of labour dispute to me. In France (often used a reference when it comes to striking...) that wouldn't be a legal strike, but obviously every jurisdiction is different. In any case, this also probably breaches EU law related to universal postal service, which states that mail must be delivered to every address 5 days a week.

paulryanrogers 3y ago
Personal postage and large commercial shipments seem unrelated to me. Moreso if the former is via a government delivery service and the latter is via a private company.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  To you perhaps, but not to universal postal service laws... ""The universal service obligation (USO) is the core of the Postal Services Directive (97/67/EC, amended by Directives 2002/39/EC and 2008/6/EC). This is the requirement that letters and parcels should be delivered to each home or business premises, on 5 days each week, throughout each EU country (with exemptions)." Tesla has a right to postal service in the same way as everyone else.
  - einr 3y ago
    Force majeure trumps all obligations. There is no law being broken here.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      What force majeure? Do you know what the term means?
      - einr 3y ago
        To answer in kind: yes, do you? https://da.se/2023/11/totalstopp-for-nya-telsabilar-far-elon-musk-att-reagera-galenskap/ https://da.se/2023/11/totalstopp-for-nya-telsabilar-far-elon... https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure "Med force majeure avses vanligen krig, upplopp, brand, naturkatastrofer (som översvämning, orkan, jordbävning), explosioner, strejk, nya lagar som förbjuder fullföljandet av avtalet, och liknande." I'll assume you read Swedish since you seem to be an expert at the issue. If not, you can plug these into a translator yourself.
        abhibeckert 3y ago
        For the benefit of everyone else reading this discussion who doesn't speak Swedish... here's what I got from a good (paid) translation service: "Force majeure typically refers to war, riots, fire, natural disasters (such as floods, hurricanes, earthquakes), explosions, strikes, new laws prohibiting the fulfillment of the contract, and similar events." The thing is though, Tesla isn't suing because their license plates aren't being delivered. They are suing because it was* literally impossible for them to access an essential government service. (* was, because Tesla has won a preliminary decision forcing the state to allow Tesla to arange an alternative delivery method - probably Tesla sending someone around to the factory to pick up the plates) In my opinion Force Majeure would only be a valid defence if it was the number plate factory workers who went on strike, but that's not what happened. The number plates are there, ready to go, and the state refused to allow Tesla to access them. Force Majeure is not a blanket blanket right to do whatever you want. It only defends you in cases where you had no reasonable alternative available due to the strike. I'm reminded of a time when flooding closed a railway line that I'd bought tickets for... the railway company didn't argue force majeure and cancel everyone's booking. They hired a dozen busses. You have an obligation to find a reasonable solution if the service you'd normally provide isn't possible. In my case, the train service was 100% aware that they had a low bridge over a river that floods whenever there is heavy rain and therefore they couldn't argue that it was an unforeseen event. They would have been liable, not only for the cost of the train ticket, but also for any other damages/etc suffered by someone who was suddenly unable to get where they needed to go (booking a flight or regular bus wasn't possible, those don't have enough spare capacity for an entire train full of people). In this case, there is a perfectly reasonable and zero cost alternative to having license plates delivered by their usual method, and they can't refuse to use that alternative.
    - stcredzero 3y ago
      Force majeure trumps all obligations. Making unions a "Force majeure" basically gives them the ability to smite as if they were gods. European states have recently developed this annoying habit of "protecting" the rights of citizens, but then leaving loopholes that render the protections null and void. By recently, I mean since the early 20th century. The Weimar Republic is the poster child of that.
      - tuukkah 3y ago
        Companies are not citizens.
        stcredzero 3y ago
        Workers at Tesla ARE citizens. The ones who voted against the collective bargaining agreement are the ones being forced against their will, using tactics reminiscent of strike-breakers from the 1900s. Also, the reference has more to do with European laws being crafted with such exceptions, not whether they apply to natural persons or corporations.
  - 3np 3y ago
    Did you read the reply to your previous duplicate comment before copy-pasting your now moot point in the current top thread? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38438450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38438450
  - backtoyoujim 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - mvdtnz 3y ago
      [flagged]
Spivak 3y ago
This is what sympathy strikes are, if you're a unionized commercial bakery who delivers to a unionized restaurant that's currently striking you don't go and strike against your own boss. That's silly. You refuse to cross the picket line and deliver goods and services to the business who's striking so they have a harder time operating. That's like the entire point. They're so effective lots of places ban them which like... take that for what it's worth.
- stcredzero 3y ago
  They're so effective lots of places ban them which like... take that for what it's worth. In this case, they are violating consensuality. The Tesla workers don't want the collective agreement. The sympathy strikers are outsiders to the Tesla employee pool who are imposing the collective agreement on them. Given this incident, I can understand why these are banned. It seems to have more to do with a political power play than it does worker's rights.
  - tuukkah 3y ago
    At least some Tesla workers do want the collective agreement (without it, they have little protection against the whims of Elon).
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > without it, they have little protection against the whims of Elon What stops them from quitting at any time, or not working for him to begin with?
      - Hikikomori 3y ago
        Nothing. Just like nothing stops the ones that do want a collection agreement as they work for Tesla and have join the union. There's no requirement for a majority wanting it or not.
        3y ago
user_named 3y ago
There is no such EU law. Post is not delivered 5 days a week in Sweden.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  "EU countries are obliged to guarantee a permanent, affordable, universal postal service everywhere within their territory, i.e. they have to guarantee as a minimum the following: - a service (collection from access points and delivery) on 5 working days a week (with exceptions); - the collection, sorting, transport and delivery of postal items weighing up to 10 kg; - services for registered and insured items." [1] That being said, obviously the specific number of days is not important here. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/postal-services-in-the-eu.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/postal-se...

paulryanrogers 3y ago

Personal postage and large commercial shipments seem unrelated to me. Moreso if the former is via a government delivery service and the latter is via a private company.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
To you perhaps, but not to universal postal service laws... ""The universal service obligation (USO) is the core of the Postal Services Directive (97/67/EC, amended by Directives 2002/39/EC and 2008/6/EC). This is the requirement that letters and parcels should be delivered to each home or business premises, on 5 days each week, throughout each EU country (with exemptions)." Tesla has a right to postal service in the same way as everyone else.
- einr 3y ago
  Force majeure trumps all obligations. There is no law being broken here.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    What force majeure? Do you know what the term means?
    - einr 3y ago
      To answer in kind: yes, do you? https://da.se/2023/11/totalstopp-for-nya-telsabilar-far-elon-musk-att-reagera-galenskap/ https://da.se/2023/11/totalstopp-for-nya-telsabilar-far-elon... https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure "Med force majeure avses vanligen krig, upplopp, brand, naturkatastrofer (som översvämning, orkan, jordbävning), explosioner, strejk, nya lagar som förbjuder fullföljandet av avtalet, och liknande." I'll assume you read Swedish since you seem to be an expert at the issue. If not, you can plug these into a translator yourself.
      - abhibeckert 3y ago
        For the benefit of everyone else reading this discussion who doesn't speak Swedish... here's what I got from a good (paid) translation service: "Force majeure typically refers to war, riots, fire, natural disasters (such as floods, hurricanes, earthquakes), explosions, strikes, new laws prohibiting the fulfillment of the contract, and similar events." The thing is though, Tesla isn't suing because their license plates aren't being delivered. They are suing because it was* literally impossible for them to access an essential government service. (* was, because Tesla has won a preliminary decision forcing the state to allow Tesla to arange an alternative delivery method - probably Tesla sending someone around to the factory to pick up the plates) In my opinion Force Majeure would only be a valid defence if it was the number plate factory workers who went on strike, but that's not what happened. The number plates are there, ready to go, and the state refused to allow Tesla to access them. Force Majeure is not a blanket blanket right to do whatever you want. It only defends you in cases where you had no reasonable alternative available due to the strike. I'm reminded of a time when flooding closed a railway line that I'd bought tickets for... the railway company didn't argue force majeure and cancel everyone's booking. They hired a dozen busses. You have an obligation to find a reasonable solution if the service you'd normally provide isn't possible. In my case, the train service was 100% aware that they had a low bridge over a river that floods whenever there is heavy rain and therefore they couldn't argue that it was an unforeseen event. They would have been liable, not only for the cost of the train ticket, but also for any other damages/etc suffered by someone who was suddenly unable to get where they needed to go (booking a flight or regular bus wasn't possible, those don't have enough spare capacity for an entire train full of people). In this case, there is a perfectly reasonable and zero cost alternative to having license plates delivered by their usual method, and they can't refuse to use that alternative.
  - stcredzero 3y ago
    Force majeure trumps all obligations. Making unions a "Force majeure" basically gives them the ability to smite as if they were gods. European states have recently developed this annoying habit of "protecting" the rights of citizens, but then leaving loopholes that render the protections null and void. By recently, I mean since the early 20th century. The Weimar Republic is the poster child of that.
    - tuukkah 3y ago
      Companies are not citizens.
      - stcredzero 3y ago
        Workers at Tesla ARE citizens. The ones who voted against the collective bargaining agreement are the ones being forced against their will, using tactics reminiscent of strike-breakers from the 1900s. Also, the reference has more to do with European laws being crafted with such exceptions, not whether they apply to natural persons or corporations.
- 3np 3y ago
  Did you read the reply to your previous duplicate comment before copy-pasting your now moot point in the current top thread? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38438450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38438450
- backtoyoujim 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    [flagged]

Spivak 3y ago

This is what sympathy strikes are, if you're a unionized commercial bakery who delivers to a unionized restaurant that's currently striking you don't go and strike against your own boss. That's silly. You refuse to cross the picket line and deliver goods and services to the business who's striking so they have a harder time operating. That's like the entire point. They're so effective lots of places ban them which like... take that for what it's worth.

stcredzero 3y ago
They're so effective lots of places ban them which like... take that for what it's worth. In this case, they are violating consensuality. The Tesla workers don't want the collective agreement. The sympathy strikers are outsiders to the Tesla employee pool who are imposing the collective agreement on them. Given this incident, I can understand why these are banned. It seems to have more to do with a political power play than it does worker's rights.
- tuukkah 3y ago
  At least some Tesla workers do want the collective agreement (without it, they have little protection against the whims of Elon).
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > without it, they have little protection against the whims of Elon What stops them from quitting at any time, or not working for him to begin with?
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      Nothing. Just like nothing stops the ones that do want a collection agreement as they work for Tesla and have join the union. There's no requirement for a majority wanting it or not.
      - 3y ago

user_named 3y ago

There is no such EU law. Post is not delivered 5 days a week in Sweden.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
"EU countries are obliged to guarantee a permanent, affordable, universal postal service everywhere within their territory, i.e. they have to guarantee as a minimum the following: - a service (collection from access points and delivery) on 5 working days a week (with exceptions); - the collection, sorting, transport and delivery of postal items weighing up to 10 kg; - services for registered and insured items." [1] That being said, obviously the specific number of days is not important here. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/postal-services-in-the-eu.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/postal-se...