7 ms·

It's sad that even great potential routes like SF->LA aren't accessible by train, and we don't seem to have the state capacity to build HSR there. I was just i

It's sad that even great potential routes like SF->LA aren't accessible by train, and we don't seem to have the state capacity to build HSR there. I was just in Japan, and took the Shinkansen from Tokyo to Kyoto, which is a similar distance as SF to LA. That train: - runs every 10 minutes -- if you miss one, just take the next one! - takes 2.5 hours travel time - starts and ends in city centers on both ends. - has better legroom and wider seats than economy - free, fast Wifi on board, your cell signal still works, and you can use your computer the whole trip. - has no security or boarding hassle. You can show up 5 minutes before departure and just get on. - has no luggage limitations AFAICT It's faster and far less stressful than flying SF to LA, with the security and boarding hassles, Ubers on both ends, and cramped onboard conditions.

resolutebat 3y ago
Small correction: every 6 minutes, not 10! And each train has 16 (sixteen) carriages and can seat over 1,300 people.
lmm 3y ago
I like the Shinkansen but it's also very expensive - that journey is ¥14,170 one way, and the discounts for return tickets or advance booking are vanishingly small. Even with the incredibly weak yen I can see same-day SF-LA flights cheaper than that.
- metadat 3y ago
  (¥14,170 is approximately $95USD)
- eldaisfish 3y ago
  Do your flight costs include parking, the costs of getting to and from the airports, the value of your time, the mental hassle of airport security theatre, the costs of additional luggage and so on? If not, it’s not a fair comparison.
  - lmm 3y ago
    "Fair" depends on what you're using it for. Parking at airports can be expensive, but parking at Tokyo or Kyoto station is more so. The stations themselves are more confusing and less well-signposted than an airport. And if you want to take oversize luggage (e.g. a surfboard) that's a moderately priced upgrade on a plane but completely impossible on the Tokaido Shinkansen. No comparison is perfect. The best you can do is talk about both the positive and the negative so that people can understand and make the best choice for their circumstances. Price should absolutely be a part of that conversation.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      >but parking at Tokyo or Kyoto station is more so That's just dumb. No one actually drives to these stations; that's what public transit is for. At worst, people might take a taxi.
      - lmm 3y ago
        Parking at an airport is equally dumb but it was in the post I was replying to, shrug.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        You're comparing apples and oranges. In America, parking at the airport is absolutely normal, because it's a car-based culture and there's generally no public transit to the airport. There's enormous parking lots for cars at all airports there. The alternative is usually a very expensive cab ride, or trying to get a friend to drive you. In Japan, parking at the train station isn't normal in the least; I don't think they even have a place to park there. The normal way is to take public transit there. Same goes for the airports (at least in Tokyo); it's not normal to drive, it's normal to take the train, though some people take taxis because they have a lot of luggage and carrying heavy suitcases on the train is a pain.
        lmm 3y ago
- CitrusFruits 3y ago
  Tickets from SFO to LAX can be cheaper, but that's usually not for optimal times. Sure you can get a round trip ticket for $80, but you'll be leaving at 6 in the morning or something like that. Additionally, you'll have to go through security, not be able to bring your own beverage (or water), sit on a much smaller seat, and not have Wi-Fi. In other words, I think $95 one way on an extremely punctual bullet train with high availability is a steal.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  This is starting to change, the discounts for early booking and/or slower trains can be up to 50% these days: https://livejapan.com/en/in-tohoku/in-pref-miyagi/in-sendai_matsushima/article-a3000190/ https://livejapan.com/en/in-tohoku/in-pref-miyagi/in-sendai_...
  - lmm 3y ago
    They have a tiny number of those 50% discounts that are always sold out even if you apply as soon as ticket sales open, IME. And note that even then they're only on the less popular lines - you'll never see a discount like that for Tokyo-Kyoto.
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      Puratto Kodama is available basically always (for slower Kodama trains only, of course) and around a third cheaper at Y9,800 for Tokyo-Kyoto. https://nihonshock.com/2010/02/puratto-kodama-cheap-shinkansen-tickets/ https://nihonshock.com/2010/02/puratto-kodama-cheap-shinkans...
- robin_reala 3y ago
  The Shinkansen pitches itself as broadly price competitive with flights, but more convenient and more comfortable. In that sense it’s not expensive, it’s greater value.
- brnt 3y ago
  Cheaper for the same seat size, allowed luggage amount?
brandall10 3y ago
I just spent the summer traveling Europe, visited 17 cities where 14 were by rail. 3 were day trips. Got so used to how easy it it to literally walk into a station and be on a train in a few minutes that I almost missed Turin->Paris when a tram to the station was five minutes behind schedule. Average connection was 5 hours of travel time, but factoring in getting to/from the airport, early arrival, etc, it was mostly a wash in any time saved. All in all, total cost for transport was about $900 (not including going/coming back from Europe, which obviously exceeded that).
chroma 3y ago
High speed rail between San Francisco and Los Angeles isn't economically viable. California HSR will cost at least $30 billion to construct and California's own estimates claim it will cost $700-$874 million per year to operate.[1] Around four million passengers fly between SF and LA every year. Assuming every single one of them takes the train instead of flying, you're looking at $175-$218 per ticket just to pay for operations. If you wanted the project to pay for itself in 20 years, you'd have to charge $550-$600 per ticket. For comparison, airfare between the two cities starts at $80 round trip. Also the train will take 3 hours while flying takes 1.5 hours. Even including the time it takes to get to/from the airport and get through security, flying is faster. 1. https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/san_jose_merced/Draft_EIRS_JM_V2-53_APP_6.0-B_HSR_Operating_Maintenance_Cost.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/san_jose...
- LordShredda 3y ago
  That's the upfront cost and profit, but think of the economic opportunities created once people can travel between the two largest cities in California with no hassle and regularly.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Funny how trains are expected to be profitable from day 1, but you can drive a car from SF to LA and not pay a cent for the highway infra that costs billions to build and upkeep. Also, in what world can you reliably get from central LA/SF to LAX/SFO and through checkin & TSA in 45 min each?
  - chroma 3y ago
    I didn't say anything about roads, but it's not true that roads are unprofitable. Roads are paid for by fuel taxes and vehicle registration fees. California's gas taxes raise $8 billion per year. The state's registration and licensing fees collect another $12 billion per year. The state spends $18 billion per year on Caltrans, meaning that vehicles provide $2 billion in revenue for other state programs. BART takes 30 minutes to get from Civic Center to SFO. Even without TSA pre-check, it takes less than 15 minutes to get through security. If you get through security 15 minutes before the plane leaves, that's 2.5 hours total travel time to LAX. From the same place in SF it takes 20-25 minutes to get to 4th & King. (Yes, Muni is that bad.) Let's say the train leaves 15 minutes after you arrive at the station. Then it will take 2 hours and 40 minutes to get to Union Station in LA. Total travel time: 3.25 hours. And again, the train cost is 5-10x that of a flight. Edit: If you think my math about the long-term profitability of California High Speed Rail is incorrect, I'd love to see some numbers showing how it could be priced similarly to air travel. I was agnostic about CA HSR for a long time. I even voted for Proposition 1A back in 2008. But no matter how I crunch the numbers, it really seems like CA HSR is a boondoggle.
picohen 3y ago
The Shinkansen is FASCINATING. I recently went and was amazed by Tokyo's infrastructure and how they have a city under a city. The fact that there is a bullet train at tokyo station every 10 mins or so is mind blowing I went into a Youtube rabbit hole the other night... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdJwAUdvlik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdJwAUdvlik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpG3yf3Rxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpG3yf3Rxk
hifromLA 3y ago
The HSR route between San Francisco and Los Angeles is under construction. It’s not gone perfectly but it is starting to pick up momentum.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vinniepukh 3y ago
Same experience on my first Japan trip earlier this year. Why can't we have nice things over here?
- wongarsu 3y ago
  But if there were nice things then other people would profit from that too. Especially those people [gestures vaguely]. /s In the country of individualism, options that are better but would also help other people who haven't directly contributed to it aren't very popular.
  - vinniepukh 3y ago
    it's funny that there instances of collectivism in the US when there's either a monetary incentive or the desire to keep the "others" out for example, the restrictive residential permitting systems in many urban areas, which just happens to be another thing Japan gets right
- pphysch 3y ago
  [flagged]
mbb70 3y ago
Agreed, Boston to NYC on Amtrak is only marginally better (sometimes) than flying and thats only ~200 miles

resolutebat 3y ago

Small correction: every 6 minutes, not 10! And each train has 16 (sixteen) carriages and can seat over 1,300 people.

lmm 3y ago

I like the Shinkansen but it's also very expensive - that journey is ¥14,170 one way, and the discounts for return tickets or advance booking are vanishingly small. Even with the incredibly weak yen I can see same-day SF-LA flights cheaper than that.

metadat 3y ago
(¥14,170 is approximately $95USD)
eldaisfish 3y ago
Do your flight costs include parking, the costs of getting to and from the airports, the value of your time, the mental hassle of airport security theatre, the costs of additional luggage and so on? If not, it’s not a fair comparison.
- lmm 3y ago
  "Fair" depends on what you're using it for. Parking at airports can be expensive, but parking at Tokyo or Kyoto station is more so. The stations themselves are more confusing and less well-signposted than an airport. And if you want to take oversize luggage (e.g. a surfboard) that's a moderately priced upgrade on a plane but completely impossible on the Tokaido Shinkansen. No comparison is perfect. The best you can do is talk about both the positive and the negative so that people can understand and make the best choice for their circumstances. Price should absolutely be a part of that conversation.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    >but parking at Tokyo or Kyoto station is more so That's just dumb. No one actually drives to these stations; that's what public transit is for. At worst, people might take a taxi.
    - lmm 3y ago
      Parking at an airport is equally dumb but it was in the post I was replying to, shrug.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        You're comparing apples and oranges. In America, parking at the airport is absolutely normal, because it's a car-based culture and there's generally no public transit to the airport. There's enormous parking lots for cars at all airports there. The alternative is usually a very expensive cab ride, or trying to get a friend to drive you. In Japan, parking at the train station isn't normal in the least; I don't think they even have a place to park there. The normal way is to take public transit there. Same goes for the airports (at least in Tokyo); it's not normal to drive, it's normal to take the train, though some people take taxis because they have a lot of luggage and carrying heavy suitcases on the train is a pain.
        lmm 3y ago
CitrusFruits 3y ago
Tickets from SFO to LAX can be cheaper, but that's usually not for optimal times. Sure you can get a round trip ticket for $80, but you'll be leaving at 6 in the morning or something like that. Additionally, you'll have to go through security, not be able to bring your own beverage (or water), sit on a much smaller seat, and not have Wi-Fi. In other words, I think $95 one way on an extremely punctual bullet train with high availability is a steal.
resolutebat 3y ago
This is starting to change, the discounts for early booking and/or slower trains can be up to 50% these days: https://livejapan.com/en/in-tohoku/in-pref-miyagi/in-sendai_matsushima/article-a3000190/ https://livejapan.com/en/in-tohoku/in-pref-miyagi/in-sendai_...
- lmm 3y ago
  They have a tiny number of those 50% discounts that are always sold out even if you apply as soon as ticket sales open, IME. And note that even then they're only on the less popular lines - you'll never see a discount like that for Tokyo-Kyoto.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Puratto Kodama is available basically always (for slower Kodama trains only, of course) and around a third cheaper at Y9,800 for Tokyo-Kyoto. https://nihonshock.com/2010/02/puratto-kodama-cheap-shinkansen-tickets/ https://nihonshock.com/2010/02/puratto-kodama-cheap-shinkans...
robin_reala 3y ago
The Shinkansen pitches itself as broadly price competitive with flights, but more convenient and more comfortable. In that sense it’s not expensive, it’s greater value.
brnt 3y ago
Cheaper for the same seat size, allowed luggage amount?

brandall10 3y ago

I just spent the summer traveling Europe, visited 17 cities where 14 were by rail. 3 were day trips. Got so used to how easy it it to literally walk into a station and be on a train in a few minutes that I almost missed Turin->Paris when a tram to the station was five minutes behind schedule. Average connection was 5 hours of travel time, but factoring in getting to/from the airport, early arrival, etc, it was mostly a wash in any time saved. All in all, total cost for transport was about $900 (not including going/coming back from Europe, which obviously exceeded that).

chroma 3y ago

High speed rail between San Francisco and Los Angeles isn't economically viable. California HSR will cost at least $30 billion to construct and California's own estimates claim it will cost $700-$874 million per year to operate.[1] Around four million passengers fly between SF and LA every year. Assuming every single one of them takes the train instead of flying, you're looking at $175-$218 per ticket just to pay for operations. If you wanted the project to pay for itself in 20 years, you'd have to charge $550-$600 per ticket. For comparison, airfare between the two cities starts at $80 round trip. Also the train will take 3 hours while flying takes 1.5 hours. Even including the time it takes to get to/from the airport and get through security, flying is faster. 1. https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/san_jose_merced/Draft_EIRS_JM_V2-53_APP_6.0-B_HSR_Operating_Maintenance_Cost.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/san_jose...

LordShredda 3y ago
That's the upfront cost and profit, but think of the economic opportunities created once people can travel between the two largest cities in California with no hassle and regularly.
resolutebat 3y ago
Funny how trains are expected to be profitable from day 1, but you can drive a car from SF to LA and not pay a cent for the highway infra that costs billions to build and upkeep. Also, in what world can you reliably get from central LA/SF to LAX/SFO and through checkin & TSA in 45 min each?
- chroma 3y ago
  I didn't say anything about roads, but it's not true that roads are unprofitable. Roads are paid for by fuel taxes and vehicle registration fees. California's gas taxes raise $8 billion per year. The state's registration and licensing fees collect another $12 billion per year. The state spends $18 billion per year on Caltrans, meaning that vehicles provide $2 billion in revenue for other state programs. BART takes 30 minutes to get from Civic Center to SFO. Even without TSA pre-check, it takes less than 15 minutes to get through security. If you get through security 15 minutes before the plane leaves, that's 2.5 hours total travel time to LAX. From the same place in SF it takes 20-25 minutes to get to 4th & King. (Yes, Muni is that bad.) Let's say the train leaves 15 minutes after you arrive at the station. Then it will take 2 hours and 40 minutes to get to Union Station in LA. Total travel time: 3.25 hours. And again, the train cost is 5-10x that of a flight. Edit: If you think my math about the long-term profitability of California High Speed Rail is incorrect, I'd love to see some numbers showing how it could be priced similarly to air travel. I was agnostic about CA HSR for a long time. I even voted for Proposition 1A back in 2008. But no matter how I crunch the numbers, it really seems like CA HSR is a boondoggle.

picohen 3y ago

The Shinkansen is FASCINATING. I recently went and was amazed by Tokyo's infrastructure and how they have a city under a city. The fact that there is a bullet train at tokyo station every 10 mins or so is mind blowing I went into a Youtube rabbit hole the other night... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdJwAUdvlik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdJwAUdvlik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpG3yf3Rxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpG3yf3Rxk

hifromLA 3y ago

The HSR route between San Francisco and Los Angeles is under construction. It’s not gone perfectly but it is starting to pick up momentum.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

vinniepukh 3y ago

Same experience on my first Japan trip earlier this year. Why can't we have nice things over here?

wongarsu 3y ago
But if there were nice things then other people would profit from that too. Especially those people [gestures vaguely]. /s In the country of individualism, options that are better but would also help other people who haven't directly contributed to it aren't very popular.
- vinniepukh 3y ago
  it's funny that there instances of collectivism in the US when there's either a monetary incentive or the desire to keep the "others" out for example, the restrictive residential permitting systems in many urban areas, which just happens to be another thing Japan gets right
pphysch 3y ago
[flagged]

mbb70 3y ago

Agreed, Boston to NYC on Amtrak is only marginally better (sometimes) than flying and thats only ~200 miles