5 ms·

My takeaway is that clustering is a distress signal and that reducing distress would be the humane thing to do assuming that insects feel pain.

by Yhippa 3y ago

pvaldes 3y ago
> assuming that insects feel pain Sometimes it seems that this kind of philosophical narratives are anchored in XVII century science. Everything with pain receptors feels pain. Period. Animals evolved this structures exclusively to feeling pain. Because this is a very positive trait if you want to survive. Insects and other invertebrates are known to have pain receptors since the XX century (Yes, clams feel pain, and roundworms feel pain also). This is not new ground breaking science at all. What is new is using this to move forward the agenda of the cruelty animal crew. I'm not against building better beehives, but we should focus, --laser focus--, our attention and most of all our scarce resources investing into much more urgent problems with insect species losing of habitat, being poisoned and facing extinction. Because money is scarce on conservation and much more scarce on invertebrate conservation; and "give me money or this bee will die frozen two days before to just die of old age and be replaced by other bee" is a ridiculous problem.
- aftbit 3y ago
  Quick translation for those who are confused by the Roman numerals like I originally was: XVII century -> 17th century -> years 1600 to 1699 XX century -> 20th century -> years 1900 to 1999
- giantg2 3y ago
  "Everything with pain receptors feels pain." Yet they'll never know real pain like the devs in deadend or overworked jobs.
  - wizzwizz4 3y ago
    And I will never know pain like having my tail stood on.
- melagonster 3y ago
  Unfortunately, insects can feel pain actually is a new concept. I don't know why, but there are people hope to replacing pig with insect, because "insects can't feel pain".
taeric 3y ago
It would be good to have evidence of that, though? Your takeaway is, at best, an assertion of the article/study. One that is really only based on thermal properties of the hive. Not on comparing survival rates. Or, really, any measure of agitation or other measure that we would use to measure distress?
kaskakokos 3y ago
Even if we don't view ourselves as humans in the most favorable light, even if consider the possibility that our tendencies might be more egotistical and destructive than we realize. In such a scenario, deliberately causing stress generation after generation in a species crucial to our well-being and, perhaps, survival is not advisable. It raises the question: What could go wrong?
kurthr 3y ago
Humans prefer fake treatments that cause pain, because you "know they're working". This cold storage is a significant added cost and used only in hot areas . It minimizes varroa since the mites can only breed in hives with brood. It's done in spring when otherwise the bees might swarm. Failing to insulate hives in cold areas will require more feeding to maintain colony size over winter, and that would be financially dumb. https://www.projectapism.org/indoor-storage-of-honey-bees-blog/using-cold-storage-for-a-brood-break-in-one-of-the-hottest-places-on-earth https://www.projectapism.org/indoor-storage-of-honey-bees-bl... The writer seems like an expert, but makes weird assumptions. Commercial beekeepers are very different (and care much more about costs and output) than hobbyists. Some hobbyists are no doubt incompetent (but caring), and some commercial operations are completely uncaring (but rarely incompetent).
- giantg2 3y ago
  "Failing to insulate hives in cold areas will require more feeding to maintain colony size over winter." What I have heard is that they use less food when it it cooler due to their metabolism being lower.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    You don't have to feed them pollen if they don't have brood, but they still try to keep themselves above the 50F storage temp so they need honey/syrup. If they were outside pollinating at spring temps (in a warm area), they wouldn't need any feeding at all. It's a cost add in the warm climes so the only reason I can see to do it is for mite treatment.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I was just talking normal overwintering. I assume cold storage would need feeding, but I don't have any large scale commercial experience.

My takeaway is that clustering is a distress signal and that reducing distress would be the humane thing to do assuming that insects feel pain.

by Yhippa 3y ago

My takeaway is that clustering is a distress signal and that reducing distress would be the humane thing to do assuming that insects feel pain.

pvaldes 3y ago

> assuming that insects feel pain Sometimes it seems that this kind of philosophical narratives are anchored in XVII century science. Everything with pain receptors feels pain. Period. Animals evolved this structures exclusively to feeling pain. Because this is a very positive trait if you want to survive. Insects and other invertebrates are known to have pain receptors since the XX century (Yes, clams feel pain, and roundworms feel pain also). This is not new ground breaking science at all. What is new is using this to move forward the agenda of the cruelty animal crew. I'm not against building better beehives, but we should focus, --laser focus--, our attention and most of all our scarce resources investing into much more urgent problems with insect species losing of habitat, being poisoned and facing extinction. Because money is scarce on conservation and much more scarce on invertebrate conservation; and "give me money or this bee will die frozen two days before to just die of old age and be replaced by other bee" is a ridiculous problem.

aftbit 3y ago
Quick translation for those who are confused by the Roman numerals like I originally was: XVII century -> 17th century -> years 1600 to 1699 XX century -> 20th century -> years 1900 to 1999
giantg2 3y ago
"Everything with pain receptors feels pain." Yet they'll never know real pain like the devs in deadend or overworked jobs.
- wizzwizz4 3y ago
  And I will never know pain like having my tail stood on.
melagonster 3y ago
Unfortunately, insects can feel pain actually is a new concept. I don't know why, but there are people hope to replacing pig with insect, because "insects can't feel pain".

taeric 3y ago

It would be good to have evidence of that, though? Your takeaway is, at best, an assertion of the article/study. One that is really only based on thermal properties of the hive. Not on comparing survival rates. Or, really, any measure of agitation or other measure that we would use to measure distress?

kaskakokos 3y ago

Even if we don't view ourselves as humans in the most favorable light, even if consider the possibility that our tendencies might be more egotistical and destructive than we realize. In such a scenario, deliberately causing stress generation after generation in a species crucial to our well-being and, perhaps, survival is not advisable. It raises the question: What could go wrong?

kurthr 3y ago

Humans prefer fake treatments that cause pain, because you "know they're working". This cold storage is a significant added cost and used only in hot areas . It minimizes varroa since the mites can only breed in hives with brood. It's done in spring when otherwise the bees might swarm. Failing to insulate hives in cold areas will require more feeding to maintain colony size over winter, and that would be financially dumb. https://www.projectapism.org/indoor-storage-of-honey-bees-blog/using-cold-storage-for-a-brood-break-in-one-of-the-hottest-places-on-earth https://www.projectapism.org/indoor-storage-of-honey-bees-bl... The writer seems like an expert, but makes weird assumptions. Commercial beekeepers are very different (and care much more about costs and output) than hobbyists. Some hobbyists are no doubt incompetent (but caring), and some commercial operations are completely uncaring (but rarely incompetent).

giantg2 3y ago
"Failing to insulate hives in cold areas will require more feeding to maintain colony size over winter." What I have heard is that they use less food when it it cooler due to their metabolism being lower.
- kurthr 3y ago
  You don't have to feed them pollen if they don't have brood, but they still try to keep themselves above the 50F storage temp so they need honey/syrup. If they were outside pollinating at spring temps (in a warm area), they wouldn't need any feeding at all. It's a cost add in the warm climes so the only reason I can see to do it is for mite treatment.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I was just talking normal overwintering. I assume cold storage would need feeding, but I don't have any large scale commercial experience.