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There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like beekeeping where people seriously neglect the animals' needs yet seem quite oblivious to it. I've noticed i

There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like beekeeping where people seriously neglect the animals' needs yet seem quite oblivious to it. I've noticed in aquaria that people often seem to think fish or shrimp will be fine in absolutely dire conditions such as low oxygen, chemically unstable, cold, hot, or otherwise hostile environments. They're genuinely confused when the system collapses. Certainly some species are very resilient, but it's no surprise that people lose entire hives or aquariums like this. Caring for nature requires real care, attention, and diligence. As in aquaria, if you want something you can "set and forget", you need to let nature take over and provide a) a biome resembling a natural habitat and b) place the appropriate species and scape inside it. Then you can get away with no mechanical filtration, no heater, no air, etc. You can safely go on vacation because the system will clean itself, generate food, and so on. But that requires considerable knowledge and care at the outset and the willingness to let things be. In the case of beekeeping, this almost seems like you'd need to allow a hive to be inside of a log or stump or something where the bees are properly protected and secure. Barring that, you need to be cognizant of their needs and actually take care of them. I'm not sure why people get the idea that animals should survive in conditions so wildly different from their natural conditions, and why they continue to try to make it work.

poulsbohemian 3y ago
> There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like beekeeping where people seriously neglect the animals' needs yet seem quite oblivious to it. I’m sorry but what?? On what basis are you making this remark? Do you really think the generations of people who have researched and kept bees are all doing so neglectfully? Look - you may not like the way bees are transported for the almond harvest (which could be a reasonable argument), but that’s not what your comment indicated. Instead you painted our entire field - which is quite broad in itself - with a massive brush as though we are all neglectful by default. So as a beekeeper, I would challenge that your statement above is seriously out of line, especially as the rest of your argument is about an entirely separate field with no examples given from beekeeper - commercial or otherwise.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  I’m speaking of hobbyists, primarily. I’m not painting an entire field, either. I’m saying there is a subset of people who participate who don’t take it seriously enough or recognize the gravity of their role as caretaker of these creatures. If this was the default, beekeeping couldn’t really exist. I’ve known a few people to keep hives and have them collapse over what likely amounts to negligence. It’s not evil negligence so much as the result of wanting it to be easier and less hands on than it is. The reason I don’t have hives (despite years of wanting to explore the practice) is that I recognize there are challenges I’m not equipped to face and special knowledge to care for the bees properly that I don’t yet have. I’ll hold off until I’ve got the right time, space, preparedness, and other factors sorted out. Some people charge into it and kill a ton of bees, over and over, not seeming to realize how crucial their role as a caretaker is. This is true of many roles as caretakers of animals. Even people with dogs sometimes fail miserably, expecting amazing results with totally inadequate inputs. My point isn’t that there’s anything wrong with beekeeping. Or aquaria for that matter. I love keeping fish. My point is that many people get into these things and cause a ton of suffering and seem oblivious to or inconvenienced by proper caretaking practices.
Night_Thastus 3y ago
>There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like beekeeping where people seriously neglect the animals' needs yet seem quite oblivious to it. Reptiles are notorious for this as well. I am an avid fan of snakes, and it's depressing to see how often they are kept very poorly. So little humidity that they have multiple layers of stuck eyecaps - potentially losing their vision. Serious infections from bites from live-feeding. Tiny cramped enclosures with nowhere for the snake to hide. Poor heat management that either leaves it freezing or with serious burns. Overfeeding to the point of obesity. Buying wild-caught animals. Buying snakes with severe genetic problems. It's very frustrating. Some owners are responsive to advice and will quickly do what they can to improve their care - but some are stubborn and won't accept any at all.
zlg_codes 3y ago
> I'm not sure why people get the idea that animals should survive in conditions so wildly different from their natural conditions, and why they continue to try to make it work. You're aware of what animal we are, yes? Our natural habitat is the savanna. We're grassland, running monkeys. We've spread across the entire globe and put our own kind into situations we'd never ask an animal to excel. It's practically in our own nature to try to defy nature itself, in a stroke of irony. You're correct, for the record. People get into things they have no clue about and then animals suffer for it. But this stood out to me because we even expect ourselves to make it outside of good conditions.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  Ha, this is such a great point. We're innately good at doing what most other species can't do. It makes sense we'd forget that they can't, you know, live in conditions that should kill them. For us? We'll bring a blanket or make a fire. For them? Misery and possible death. It's not unreasonable to think people might just forget how much we actually do to adapt that other animals simply can't.

poulsbohemian 3y ago

> There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like beekeeping where people seriously neglect the animals' needs yet seem quite oblivious to it. I’m sorry but what?? On what basis are you making this remark? Do you really think the generations of people who have researched and kept bees are all doing so neglectfully? Look - you may not like the way bees are transported for the almond harvest (which could be a reasonable argument), but that’s not what your comment indicated. Instead you painted our entire field - which is quite broad in itself - with a massive brush as though we are all neglectful by default. So as a beekeeper, I would challenge that your statement above is seriously out of line, especially as the rest of your argument is about an entirely separate field with no examples given from beekeeper - commercial or otherwise.

steve_adams_86 3y ago
I’m speaking of hobbyists, primarily. I’m not painting an entire field, either. I’m saying there is a subset of people who participate who don’t take it seriously enough or recognize the gravity of their role as caretaker of these creatures. If this was the default, beekeeping couldn’t really exist. I’ve known a few people to keep hives and have them collapse over what likely amounts to negligence. It’s not evil negligence so much as the result of wanting it to be easier and less hands on than it is. The reason I don’t have hives (despite years of wanting to explore the practice) is that I recognize there are challenges I’m not equipped to face and special knowledge to care for the bees properly that I don’t yet have. I’ll hold off until I’ve got the right time, space, preparedness, and other factors sorted out. Some people charge into it and kill a ton of bees, over and over, not seeming to realize how crucial their role as a caretaker is. This is true of many roles as caretakers of animals. Even people with dogs sometimes fail miserably, expecting amazing results with totally inadequate inputs. My point isn’t that there’s anything wrong with beekeeping. Or aquaria for that matter. I love keeping fish. My point is that many people get into these things and cause a ton of suffering and seem oblivious to or inconvenienced by proper caretaking practices.

Night_Thastus 3y ago

>There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like beekeeping where people seriously neglect the animals' needs yet seem quite oblivious to it. Reptiles are notorious for this as well. I am an avid fan of snakes, and it's depressing to see how often they are kept very poorly. So little humidity that they have multiple layers of stuck eyecaps - potentially losing their vision. Serious infections from bites from live-feeding. Tiny cramped enclosures with nowhere for the snake to hide. Poor heat management that either leaves it freezing or with serious burns. Overfeeding to the point of obesity. Buying wild-caught animals. Buying snakes with severe genetic problems. It's very frustrating. Some owners are responsive to advice and will quickly do what they can to improve their care - but some are stubborn and won't accept any at all.

zlg_codes 3y ago

> I'm not sure why people get the idea that animals should survive in conditions so wildly different from their natural conditions, and why they continue to try to make it work. You're aware of what animal we are, yes? Our natural habitat is the savanna. We're grassland, running monkeys. We've spread across the entire globe and put our own kind into situations we'd never ask an animal to excel. It's practically in our own nature to try to defy nature itself, in a stroke of irony. You're correct, for the record. People get into things they have no clue about and then animals suffer for it. But this stood out to me because we even expect ourselves to make it outside of good conditions.

steve_adams_86 3y ago
Ha, this is such a great point. We're innately good at doing what most other species can't do. It makes sense we'd forget that they can't, you know, live in conditions that should kill them. For us? We'll bring a blanket or make a fire. For them? Misery and possible death. It's not unreasonable to think people might just forget how much we actually do to adapt that other animals simply can't.