6 ms·

Not having any concern for people that want to kill you is something that should have broader support.

atoav 3y ago
See, this is my problem. It is okay to have hate people who want to kill you. But that 2 year old Palestinian toddler does not want to kill you, it can't barely speak. The ~75% of Palestinians that said they do not trust the Hamas in a representative face-to-face poll weeks before the attack would probably not want to kill you either. Hate becomes a problem once it makes you twist reality to validate and fuel your hate. If you ever have been in a life threatening situation and survived, it was probably because in the right moment you went all calm and controlled and did the right thing. What Israel is currently doing is the opposite of that. The Hamas already had lost in the court of public opinion, the only way to turn that into a Hamas win is to give them the brutal, inhumane retaliation they want. A retaliation that will flame their support and motivate new bystanders. And guess what, they would use the very same argument as you. And just like you they wouldn't be completely wrong either. This is not speculation, this is guerilla warfare 101. What should have broader support is not to give emotionally uncontrollable and impulsive men the power to decide about the problems their kids will have to deal with — solutions that won't alleviate the problems, but make them worse. Makes you wonder for whom they are doing this, other than themselves.
- prmph 3y ago
  I also don't understand views like yours. The Gaza strip was not a ghetto. Its HDI was higher than many nations, and tt had areas described as wealthy. In recent times, Israel, convinced that Hamas was turning over a new leaf, had been giving concessions, and easing restrictions. One may quibble about the pace of this, but remember, this blockage on Gaza is a directly result of fears of what would happen if they were given free reign. Now, do you think murdering over a thousand people make it more likely that Israel will relax it restrictions on Gaza? If the objective of Hamas was to get Israel to relax its restrictions on Gaza even more, then their attack does not make sense. But, things make sense if you understand that their objective is not to live peacefully side by side with Israel. This is fundamentally a cultural and ideological conflict. It sounds like the very idea of a non-Arab nation right in the heart of the middle east is anathema to them. And Hamas is not some alien occupier of Gaza. I have watched this crisis for weeks, and have never come across any Gazan denouncing Hamas. If you have some links to an instance of this, I would like to see it. I have also not heard of any Arab nation denouncing Hamas. So, if your argument is that Israel do nothing, or only do very specific targeting of known Hamas operatives, then you are arguing that a murderous cult be allowed free reign to operate. Was this not the status quo for all these years? I always heard about various wars and incursions into Gaza. If not, waht would you have Israel do?
  - atoav 3y ago
    Don't get me wrong here. What I said is that there are multiple ways in which one can react to this crisis, one of those ways is emotional and automatic. I warned against the fact that this way rarely is the best response long term, especially not in military conflicts. That does not mean that I don't understand the urge to do so. The systemic dynamic of this conflict is well understood and the fact that Hamas just happens to attack before a major diplomatic breakthrough between Israel and the Saudis is very likely no accident. On the Gaza strip: Look at a satellite picture of it and remember that there are two million people there, half of which are below 18, of those 74 percent have no job. Roughly half of the population is in poverty. Hamas has been elected with a anti-corruption-agenda in 2014, roughly a decade ago. Our jobless 18 year old was 4 when that happened. You remember who was in power when you where four? Maybe you don't know but anti-Hamas protests in Gaza are a thing (as one would expect giving the living conditions). They are also brutally beaten down by Hamas as one would equally expect: https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerg... https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672 https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-b... Now we are again in a conflict with its own dynamics, where Israel is realiant on international support and Hamas is reliant on building anger in Palestinanand the rest of the arab worls against the Israelis (instead of anger against them for doing a shitty job at governing/treating their citizens bad). If Israel goes in with the flaming sword, they will produce exactly that anger in the rest of the region, which might be even more dangerous than the anger of the Palestinians. If one considers that Hamas has been originally funded by Israel (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c...) a good strategy would be to: - not retaliate harshly, but only in very pointed actions, this way Hamas stays the bad terrorists and Israel retains the international support it needs - try to flare up resentment of the palestinian population against their betters and avoid things that allow a simple redirection of that anger towards Isreal - fund existing pro democratic/anti-Hamas movements, help with civil infrastructure, again to guide the resentment at Hamas - expand the partnership with surrounding arab countries, maybe even bring them on board to help with Gaza as a gesture of good will (this is a stopgap against other arab countries solidarizing with Hamas). So essentially Israel profits if all arab entities are seperated from Hamas with their own interests, while Hamas profits if it is a simple jews against arabs-conflict. Now the problem with all of these is, that to a understandably traumatized Israeli public that proposal must feel downright absurd and any government that had to implement it might not survive the next election. (My guess is that a part of military Israel understands basic gametheory dynamic as well, which is why we don't have stronger action).

See, this is my problem. It is okay to have hate people who want to kill you. But that 2 year old Palestinian toddler does not want to kill you, it can't barely speak. The ~75% of Palestinians that said they do not trust the Hamas in a representative face-to-face poll weeks before the attack would probably not want to kill you either. Hate becomes a problem once it makes you twist reality to validate and fuel your hate. If you ever have been in a life threatening situation and survived, it was probably because in the right moment you went all calm and controlled and did the right thing. What Israel is currently doing is the opposite of that. The Hamas already had lost in the court of public opinion, the only way to turn that into a Hamas win is to give them the brutal, inhumane retaliation they want. A retaliation that will flame their support and motivate new bystanders. And guess what, they would use the very same argument as you. And just like you they wouldn't be completely wrong either. This is not speculation, this is guerilla warfare 101. What should have broader support is not to give emotionally uncontrollable and impulsive men the power to decide about the problems their kids will have to deal with — solutions that won't alleviate the problems, but make them worse. Makes you wonder for whom they are doing this, other than themselves.

prmph 3y ago
I also don't understand views like yours. The Gaza strip was not a ghetto. Its HDI was higher than many nations, and tt had areas described as wealthy. In recent times, Israel, convinced that Hamas was turning over a new leaf, had been giving concessions, and easing restrictions. One may quibble about the pace of this, but remember, this blockage on Gaza is a directly result of fears of what would happen if they were given free reign. Now, do you think murdering over a thousand people make it more likely that Israel will relax it restrictions on Gaza? If the objective of Hamas was to get Israel to relax its restrictions on Gaza even more, then their attack does not make sense. But, things make sense if you understand that their objective is not to live peacefully side by side with Israel. This is fundamentally a cultural and ideological conflict. It sounds like the very idea of a non-Arab nation right in the heart of the middle east is anathema to them. And Hamas is not some alien occupier of Gaza. I have watched this crisis for weeks, and have never come across any Gazan denouncing Hamas. If you have some links to an instance of this, I would like to see it. I have also not heard of any Arab nation denouncing Hamas. So, if your argument is that Israel do nothing, or only do very specific targeting of known Hamas operatives, then you are arguing that a murderous cult be allowed free reign to operate. Was this not the status quo for all these years? I always heard about various wars and incursions into Gaza. If not, waht would you have Israel do?
- atoav 3y ago
  Don't get me wrong here. What I said is that there are multiple ways in which one can react to this crisis, one of those ways is emotional and automatic. I warned against the fact that this way rarely is the best response long term, especially not in military conflicts. That does not mean that I don't understand the urge to do so. The systemic dynamic of this conflict is well understood and the fact that Hamas just happens to attack before a major diplomatic breakthrough between Israel and the Saudis is very likely no accident. On the Gaza strip: Look at a satellite picture of it and remember that there are two million people there, half of which are below 18, of those 74 percent have no job. Roughly half of the population is in poverty. Hamas has been elected with a anti-corruption-agenda in 2014, roughly a decade ago. Our jobless 18 year old was 4 when that happened. You remember who was in power when you where four? Maybe you don't know but anti-Hamas protests in Gaza are a thing (as one would expect giving the living conditions). They are also brutally beaten down by Hamas as one would equally expect: https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerg... https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672 https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-b... Now we are again in a conflict with its own dynamics, where Israel is realiant on international support and Hamas is reliant on building anger in Palestinanand the rest of the arab worls against the Israelis (instead of anger against them for doing a shitty job at governing/treating their citizens bad). If Israel goes in with the flaming sword, they will produce exactly that anger in the rest of the region, which might be even more dangerous than the anger of the Palestinians. If one considers that Hamas has been originally funded by Israel (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c...) a good strategy would be to: - not retaliate harshly, but only in very pointed actions, this way Hamas stays the bad terrorists and Israel retains the international support it needs - try to flare up resentment of the palestinian population against their betters and avoid things that allow a simple redirection of that anger towards Isreal - fund existing pro democratic/anti-Hamas movements, help with civil infrastructure, again to guide the resentment at Hamas - expand the partnership with surrounding arab countries, maybe even bring them on board to help with Gaza as a gesture of good will (this is a stopgap against other arab countries solidarizing with Hamas). So essentially Israel profits if all arab entities are seperated from Hamas with their own interests, while Hamas profits if it is a simple jews against arabs-conflict. Now the problem with all of these is, that to a understandably traumatized Israeli public that proposal must feel downright absurd and any government that had to implement it might not survive the next election. (My guess is that a part of military Israel understands basic gametheory dynamic as well, which is why we don't have stronger action).