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Email was not designed to be used the way we use it now. ...my inbox is a todo list, and email is the way things get onto it. But it is a disastrously bad todo

by oskarth 15y ago

Email was not designed to be used the way we use it now. ...my inbox is a todo list, and email is the way things get onto it. But it is a disastrously bad todo list. ...it seems unlikely that people in 100 years will still be living in the same email hell we do now. And if email is going to get replaced eventually, why not now? ...some of the most powerful people are all at the mercy of email too. [1] Your posts reminds me of someone arguing to keep the oral tradition going instead of switching to writing. I am not saying anyone has suggested anything close to the equivalent of writing, but there is definitely a fundamental problem with email that can't just be solved by a couple of perl scripts and rules. I would also assume one's career choice is a premise for making better tools and protocols - anything else seems kind of backwards. If the president was forced to work in a public market space, would you tell him to change career if he remarked on how he couldn't get anything done? There is a difference in saying email should be killed forever and that it should be replaced by something else for certain usages, just as twitter and Facebook replaced portions of email. Incidentally though, such a replace could likely render email useless for many people. 1: http://paulgraham.com/ambitious.html http://paulgraham.com/ambitious.html

skeptical 15y ago
Facebook and twitter fill a niche were email was being used in a way that it was not supposed to. It's electronic mail, you want to send a message to a friend that he/she checks whenever he/she decides to check, emails does that flawlessly. It's not rocket science. Saying that email 'is broken' touches the hilarious. It's like saying a bycicle is 'broken' because it's not able to take you the same places a car can. I don't know why I even take part in such discussions. I guess I'm bored.
vog 15y ago
> Email was not designed to be used the way we use it now. ...my inbox is a todo list So we should not use email as a TODO list, but keep a separate TODO list. Email is not broken, it's just the wrong tool for keeping TODO lists. I would never have thought of (mis)using email for a TODO list, and I'm astonished to read from various famous people (not just pg) that they're seriously doing that. Maybe this is a typical mistake of Internet beginners, but why are so many experienced and very busy people doing such a huge organizational mistake, every day? There are lots of tools for keeping a TODO list. For my personal purposes, a plain text file works flawlessly. [1] Bigger organizations use various forms of issue trackers, or use a simple Wiki to simulate an issue tracker. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3830247 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3830247
- cturner 15y ago
  If you get lots of emails, then you won't always have time to follow up on all of them. Somtimes the mere task of comprehending the email to create todos from it takes energy, and you don't always have energy to do that immediately. So the emails queue. Effectively the emails become tasks. After several weeks of high load you find your inbox is crammed with lots of things you mean to get around to but you're exhausted. This is a common problem for busy people and has no obvious solution. One way we try to tackle hard problems is by identifying them, and then having open discussion. > or use a simple Wiki to simulate an issue tracker. > For my personal purposes, a plain text file works > flawlessly. The mechanisms you're talking about don't scale to situations where you're being hit by a firehose of emails and calls, but where you have to have concentration periods as well. e.g. technical role that's customer-facing. My current solution is multi-layered, and starts with a text file. But it's not the simple problem that you make it out to be.
  - fluorid 15y ago
    The common problem you describe is still not about email. The real cause lies in people with deficits in time management, organisational skills and leadership. If you have too many projects/threads going on with too many people time to change: do fewer projects, focus, delegate, give people goals rather than nitty-gritty todos, basically stop micro-managing, find talented peers and trust them.
    - cturner 15y ago
      There are mechanisms through which some limitations of email can be worked around, but there are still problems with email. Technologies lend themselves to particular use and misuse, and when we see a repeating patterns of abuse, it's reasonable to focus on the technology and talk about what we can do differently. The original post is talking about email as a series of protocols and ignoring the culture of email as we use it in day-to-day use. It's a nerdy rant that dismisses a problem space by forcing a new definition on the language, rather than addressing the problems that people suffer. The chap I relied to continues the tone by insulting people who are dealing with the queue. Email is the monitoring messages that clog up my inbox. It's the reasonable expectation of response that happens when somebody sends me an email, unlike with my phone where I leave voicemail turned off or a colleague can take a call and I can know that ownership has shifted. Email is the ease with which a difficult-to-understand message is sent and the exhaustion created by comprehending it. It's the poor integration with task management. It's the awkwardness around tracking ownership of an issue that's sent to a group list. It's spam. It's the compromises you make to avoid spam. It's how awkward it is to implement IMAP, and the multiple eccentricities of different IMAP servers, and how woeful POP is. It's Lotus Notes and Exchange, and being forced to use them.
gbog 15y ago
When I read this piece from Paul Graham, I wondered if he had an assistant (I mean a flesh and bones personal assistant). Is that that assistant are too expensive nowadays in the West? If I were a powerful influencer with enough money, I'd consider hiring an assistant to help me filter these mails. He or she will probably be easier to train than a Bayesian filter... Automatisation is not the last word for every human activities. Many people are struggling to find a job. Many could do this kind of task efficiently, and even enjoy it. Maybe I have a different point of view because I live in China, where labor is cheaper, but for instance here if you have a kid and don't wish to change 100% of his diapers, you can just pay someone to do so, it is cheap enough and many people are happy to do this for you (it is often better paid and always safer than working in iPad factories). "Externalizing" some tasks to other people also means you have a life with more and deeper human contacts. Surely, these human being must be handled much more carefully than a "web service", you have to smile to them and consider their problems. Sometime you have to do compromise and accept a less than perfect outcome. Sometime you have to manage these people that work for you. But this is life.
- fluorid 15y ago
  Good point, it reveals a lack of organizational and leadership skills. If one is so wanted that his inbox is quickly full either he has to reduce workload or hire staff and delegate.
- flogic 15y ago
  Yea he should probably hire an assistant. Good secretaries can light saber through bullshit. That said, I can't afford a secretary and my inbox is completely out of control. It's won. I've lost. There is virtually nothing I can do about it at the moment.
  - Zak 15y ago
    In what way is it out of control? I may be working on things that can help with this problem. Is it just that you're communicating with too many people? Do most of the emails require action, or are some of them things you don't even want to read?
Gormo 15y ago
> but there is definitely a fundamental problem with email that can't just be solved by a couple of perl scripts and rules And what is that problem? Yeah, email makes a poor to-do list, but if everyone around you is eating soup out of top hats, then you need to rethink soup bowls, not top hats. Tinkering with email doesn't help you make a better to-do list.

by oskarth 15y ago

skeptical 15y ago

Facebook and twitter fill a niche were email was being used in a way that it was not supposed to. It's electronic mail, you want to send a message to a friend that he/she checks whenever he/she decides to check, emails does that flawlessly. It's not rocket science. Saying that email 'is broken' touches the hilarious. It's like saying a bycicle is 'broken' because it's not able to take you the same places a car can. I don't know why I even take part in such discussions. I guess I'm bored.

vog 15y ago

> Email was not designed to be used the way we use it now. ...my inbox is a todo list So we should not use email as a TODO list, but keep a separate TODO list. Email is not broken, it's just the wrong tool for keeping TODO lists. I would never have thought of (mis)using email for a TODO list, and I'm astonished to read from various famous people (not just pg) that they're seriously doing that. Maybe this is a typical mistake of Internet beginners, but why are so many experienced and very busy people doing such a huge organizational mistake, every day? There are lots of tools for keeping a TODO list. For my personal purposes, a plain text file works flawlessly. [1] Bigger organizations use various forms of issue trackers, or use a simple Wiki to simulate an issue tracker. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3830247 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3830247

cturner 15y ago
If you get lots of emails, then you won't always have time to follow up on all of them. Somtimes the mere task of comprehending the email to create todos from it takes energy, and you don't always have energy to do that immediately. So the emails queue. Effectively the emails become tasks. After several weeks of high load you find your inbox is crammed with lots of things you mean to get around to but you're exhausted. This is a common problem for busy people and has no obvious solution. One way we try to tackle hard problems is by identifying them, and then having open discussion. > or use a simple Wiki to simulate an issue tracker. > For my personal purposes, a plain text file works > flawlessly. The mechanisms you're talking about don't scale to situations where you're being hit by a firehose of emails and calls, but where you have to have concentration periods as well. e.g. technical role that's customer-facing. My current solution is multi-layered, and starts with a text file. But it's not the simple problem that you make it out to be.
- fluorid 15y ago
  The common problem you describe is still not about email. The real cause lies in people with deficits in time management, organisational skills and leadership. If you have too many projects/threads going on with too many people time to change: do fewer projects, focus, delegate, give people goals rather than nitty-gritty todos, basically stop micro-managing, find talented peers and trust them.
  - cturner 15y ago
    There are mechanisms through which some limitations of email can be worked around, but there are still problems with email. Technologies lend themselves to particular use and misuse, and when we see a repeating patterns of abuse, it's reasonable to focus on the technology and talk about what we can do differently. The original post is talking about email as a series of protocols and ignoring the culture of email as we use it in day-to-day use. It's a nerdy rant that dismisses a problem space by forcing a new definition on the language, rather than addressing the problems that people suffer. The chap I relied to continues the tone by insulting people who are dealing with the queue. Email is the monitoring messages that clog up my inbox. It's the reasonable expectation of response that happens when somebody sends me an email, unlike with my phone where I leave voicemail turned off or a colleague can take a call and I can know that ownership has shifted. Email is the ease with which a difficult-to-understand message is sent and the exhaustion created by comprehending it. It's the poor integration with task management. It's the awkwardness around tracking ownership of an issue that's sent to a group list. It's spam. It's the compromises you make to avoid spam. It's how awkward it is to implement IMAP, and the multiple eccentricities of different IMAP servers, and how woeful POP is. It's Lotus Notes and Exchange, and being forced to use them.

gbog 15y ago

When I read this piece from Paul Graham, I wondered if he had an assistant (I mean a flesh and bones personal assistant). Is that that assistant are too expensive nowadays in the West? If I were a powerful influencer with enough money, I'd consider hiring an assistant to help me filter these mails. He or she will probably be easier to train than a Bayesian filter... Automatisation is not the last word for every human activities. Many people are struggling to find a job. Many could do this kind of task efficiently, and even enjoy it. Maybe I have a different point of view because I live in China, where labor is cheaper, but for instance here if you have a kid and don't wish to change 100% of his diapers, you can just pay someone to do so, it is cheap enough and many people are happy to do this for you (it is often better paid and always safer than working in iPad factories). "Externalizing" some tasks to other people also means you have a life with more and deeper human contacts. Surely, these human being must be handled much more carefully than a "web service", you have to smile to them and consider their problems. Sometime you have to do compromise and accept a less than perfect outcome. Sometime you have to manage these people that work for you. But this is life.

fluorid 15y ago
Good point, it reveals a lack of organizational and leadership skills. If one is so wanted that his inbox is quickly full either he has to reduce workload or hire staff and delegate.
flogic 15y ago
Yea he should probably hire an assistant. Good secretaries can light saber through bullshit. That said, I can't afford a secretary and my inbox is completely out of control. It's won. I've lost. There is virtually nothing I can do about it at the moment.
- Zak 15y ago
  In what way is it out of control? I may be working on things that can help with this problem. Is it just that you're communicating with too many people? Do most of the emails require action, or are some of them things you don't even want to read?

Gormo 15y ago

> but there is definitely a fundamental problem with email that can't just be solved by a couple of perl scripts and rules And what is that problem? Yeah, email makes a poor to-do list, but if everyone around you is eating soup out of top hats, then you need to rethink soup bowls, not top hats. Tinkering with email doesn't help you make a better to-do list.